Arvind Kejriwal interview: ‘Only the PM can answer how long he wants me in jail… If I quit (as CM), Mamata and Pinarayi govts will be toppled next’

“Because I am the main leader of the AAP, they believe that if they crush me, target me, AAP will finish,” Kejriwal said. (Express photo by Renuka Puri)

What makes you say the BJP is targeting AAP and, specifically, you?

The phenomenal rise of the Aam Aadmi Party. Many people who meet the PM, some of them are our friends too, they tell us that the PM discusses AAP frequently. And he says that in the future, AAP will challenge them nationally and in many states. They want to nip it in the bud, crush AAP before it grows. They are running ‘operation jhaadu’ these days as part of which they are arresting AAP leaders… Mr Raju (Additional Solicitor General S V Raju) has given a statement that they will seize our accounts after the elections. Proceedings to vacate our office are underway. But they don’t understand that AAP is no longer a party of four people. It is now a thought that is spreading across the country. The kind of work we have done in the fields of education and health, no one has seen before. Why did we win in Punjab? Because our work in Delhi resonated there. Why did people in Gujarat vote for us? Because our work in Punjab and Delhi.

And Arvind Kejriwal, the individual?

Because I am the main leader of the AAP, they believe that if they crush me, target me, AAP will finish. When they arrested me, they had hoped they could paint me as corrupt, and that all our leaders will break away, AAP will disintegrate, they will break our MLAs, topple our government and there will be no one left to campaign. The opposite happened. After my arrest, the message that went out to the people was that an honest, simple man has been arrested. None of our leaders broke away, the party became more close-knit and volunteers worked with double the energy.

After your release on interim bail, you said Prime Minister Narendra Modi will retire at 75 and Home Minister Amit Shah will step into his shoes. Why? This was countered by Shah…

Amit Shah ji and many others said it that day, but it was their appeal to the PM not to retire. Modi ji has not confirmed this. If he doesn’t follow the rule that he made, people will say that he made the rule only to finish Advani ji. If Modi ji says I will not retire, that this rule does not apply to me, I will believe it. Other leaders will, of course, say it. That he hasn’t said it means he will retire next year. A very ugly succession battle is going on within the BJP. Modi ji wants Shah ji to become PM, and this is not acceptable to the rest of the BJP.

But the PM said he has no successor and that the people of the country are his heirs…

Modi ji will have to clarify whether that rule applies to him or not. Or was it brought only to finish off Advani ji and Murli Manohar Joshi ji?

You claim you will run the government from jail. Why and how… what if this is not allowed?

Let me first explain why I am not resigning. People accuse me of being stuck to my chair. I have never been greedy for a chair or a post. When I was Income Tax commissioner, I quit to work in Delhi’s slums for 10 years. When I became CM, I resigned in 49 days without provocation. I did it for my principles. This time I am not resigning because it is a part of my struggle. They (the BJP) understand they cannot defeat Kejriwal in Delhi – we got 67 seats on one occasion, 62 seats on another – so they frame Kejriwal in a false case. So that Kejriwal resigns and his government can be toppled. This is dangerous for democracy. If I resign today, they will topple Mamata Banerjee’s, Pinarayi Vijayan’s governments tomorrow. Wherever the BJP loses, the CM can be arrested and his government toppled. This battle has to be fought. If they put democracy in jail, democracy will be run from jail. We will fight this tooth and nail.

Logistically, how can this work?

The Supreme Court and High Court have already heard PILs seeking my removal (as CM). The Supreme Court said we can’t remove him. So I can remain CM from jail. If I can remain CM, the court has to provide me facilities to discharge my duties from inside jail. We will go to court so that basic facilities to run the government from inside jail are provided.

“A very ugly succession battle is going on within the BJP. Modi ji wants Shah ji to become PM, and this is not acceptable to the rest of the BJP,” the AAP supremo said. (Express photo by Renuka Puri)

Will you also run the party from jail?

Obviously.

Doesn’t your message of ‘vote to keep me out of jail’ take away from the larger INDIA bloc message?

When I go to Jamshedpur, I seek votes for Hemant Soren ji, when I go to Punjab, the message is different. You have to understand that this election has become very local. This election does not revolve around Modi ji. The polls in Maharashtra, Punjab, Delhi, Jharkhand  are all different. In every place, people are voting on different issues… I don’t think this election revolves around Modi ji… In 2014 and 2019, the election revolved around Modi ji for whatever reason. That’s not the case this time.

Are your candidates getting support from the Congress cadre on the ground?

There were initial hiccups, but there is synergy now. It was a difficult task but our workers and leaders in my absence have done a brilliant job. When I came back, I saw and sensed the synergy between the two parties.

Has any Opposition leader paid you a personal visit after you came out of jail?

It’s not important. Everyone is busy with elections. I don’t want to waste anyone’s time. It is important that everyone does their work and defeat the Modi government. I am not looking for anyone’s kind words or sympathies.

Why have you not shared the stage with the Congress central leadership?

The dates have not matched. For a week, we have been trying to hold a joint roadshow with Rahul Gandhi ji. I have a very short window in between. His programmes were set for quite some time. In Maharashtra, (Mallikarjun) Kharge was sitting next to me.

What’s your view on a third term with Modi as Prime Minister?

They will change the Constitution and the country will move towards dictatorship. Either there will be no elections, or the elections will be like those in Russia, where Mr Putin has either put the entire opposition in jail or has got them killed. After that elections were held and he got 87% votes. In Bangladesh, Sheikh Hasina put everyone in jail and won by a bumper margin. In Pakistan, they jailed Imran Khan, took away his party, his symbol, and won. These kinds of elections will happen in our country as well. The entire opposition will be in jail and they will keep getting votes. This time too, they put me in jail, put Manish Sisodia in jail, jailed five top leaders of our party. They are about to freeze our accounts; they froze Congress’s accounts. Hemant Soren was jailed, they split NCP into two, took away their symbol. They split Shiv Sena and took away their symbol. Several ministers in the Mamata Banerjee government have been jailed, same with ministers in the Stalin government. You cannot even imagine how we are fighting.

What about the safeguards in place?

They have demolished the safeguards. What were the safeguards? Several institutions which were there in this country. One by one they have captured these institutions and have demolished them… Investigative agencies, the conduct of the Election Commission today, the judiciary is openly threatened, the types of statements their leaders make, the judiciary is under so much pressure. One by one every institution is being finished… There could be individuals who are still standing, holding up, but institutionally they have tried to take over each one. And if they win this term, the demolition and the control would be complete.

How’s the issue of (Supreme Court striking down) electoral bonds playing out?

I think there wasn’t sufficient time to translate electoral bonds into a real political issue. It’s a complex issue. Electoral bonds, per se, people don’t understand. They aren’t one scam, there are multiple scams. Every donation is a scam, for every donation there’s a quid pro quo. If that had been conveyed to the people… If this judgement came a year ago, this could have become a bigger electoral issue.

Relations between the Delhi government and the Lieutenant Governor have never been more adversarial…

This system cannot work. He is appointed by our bitter opponent, by the party against whom we are fighting our biggest political battle. With the mandate that you will not let them (AAP government) work. I don’t want to talk about individuals, but overall. His job is to stop our work so that we are defamed. That is all there is. Whoever came, someone was more aggressive, someone was less so. This system cannot work, it has to change.

You worry that once you go back to jail (June 2), you could be gone for a long time?

Only the Prime Minister can answer that question woh mujhe kab tak jail mein rakhna chahte hain (about how long he wants to keep me in jail).

You believe it is the Prime Minister’s call to keep you in jail?

Obviously. They decide who has to be kept in jail for how long. Manish Sisodia and Satyendar Jain have got messages, saying ‘BJP main aa jao, bail dilva denge (Join BJP, we will get you bail)’.

You make this allegation of the BJP approaching your party leaders repeatedly. But we are yet to see any concrete proof to back that claim…

Why do we have to give proof? We said what happened. What do you expect — that we walk around with a tape recorder in our pocket?

What is your assessment of the Lok Sabha results?

There are three factors because of which BJP might see a drastic fall. Number 1, unemployment and inflation is becoming a big issue. People are not being able to manage their household expenses, jobs are decreasing instead of increasing, young people are sitting at home. People see that the PM is not speaking about it… So they don’t even have a hope from the Prime Minister. On the contrary, they are watching the Prime Minister making all kinds of nonsensical talk. He says the INDIA bloc will steal your taps, cut your power.

The second factor is that BJP is not fighting as a team in these elections. Nadda sahab (BJP president JP Nadda) said recently that we (the BJP) don’t need the RSS. This means that the RSS is not working for the BJP this time… The internal succession battle has become very bitter. The PM wants to promote Amit Shah but he is not acceptable to the rest of the BJP. The way they have sidelined senior leaders to promote Amit Shah ji — Vasundhara Raje, Shivraj Singh Chouhan, Raman Singh are angry; they are also talking about removing Yogi ji, so he too is also angry.

Third, there is talk of dictatorship… The amount of times I have heard the word tanashahi (dictatorship), I am very surprised that it has spread among the people.

Because of these three factors, I feel BJP is going to get less than 220 seats and the INDIA bloc could touch 300.

One of the BJP’s key points is that under Prime Minister Modi’s leadership, India’s stature has grown on the global stage.

This is only among their voters. It is not adding new voters. This only fills the stomach of BJP’s and Modi’s hardcore voters. They say anything can happen, a gas cylinder can cost Rs 16,000, and they will be okay with it. The others cannot survive on this.

When you were in jail, we saw that some of your Rajya Sabha MPs were not seen on the ground…

This has been spread by the BJP. They are saying Raghav Chadha went to London, so vote for us; Swati Maliwal did not say anything, so vote for us. What is this? Did Advani ji seek votes? Did Murli Manohar Joshi? Did Vasundhara Raje seek votes? If you talk about three of our leaders, we can name 30 of yours.

As someone who has worked with (AAP Rajya Sabha MP) Swati Maliwal for two decades, and seeing how things have now spiralled out of control, do you think the situation could have been handled differently?

It would not be right for me to speak on this issue at present. There are two versions — Swati’s and Bibhav’s (Kejriwal’s aide Bibhav Kumar). The police have both versions, let them do an honest job. I would expect them to do an honest job.

But one thing that I would say to Modi ji on this is that you tried everything to break me. You arrested my MLAs, my ministers, arrested me, tortured me in Tihar but I didn’t break. But he crossed all limits today when he targeted my elderly parents.

Have the police met your parents?

Not yet. They sent a message yesterday, asking for time at 11.30 am. We waited for half an hour but they didn’t turn up.

What’s it like for your family to see you go back to jail?

They are all very brave and supportive. I am very fortunate to have such a family and such a wife. The kids are very understanding.