Sandeep Dikshit interview: ‘This argument of English-speaking crowd… crores of people who are aspirational, want to do well, want role models… Shashi Tharoor attracts them’

When I heard that Mr Tharoor was offering his name as a candidate, about 10-15 days ago, I approached him. I thought he would be a good choice, even though at that time, I didn’t know who else was standing. I have three or four reasons for my conviction.

One is that he is a self-made man. That’s important, because in spite of all these cheap remarks of elitism and all, he is not somebody who has come from a favoured family, but has made a name for himself internationally… in whichever field he has chosen. Politics isn’t his chosen field. In his field, he rose to almost becoming the UN Secretary General. He has got an intellect that is worth talking about. He is a person who has built himself with his capability, intellect, sincerity and hard work. That speaks volumes about a person.

Secondly, I have heard him talk about ideological issues, and while I don’t agree with everything he has to say, which can be the case with anyone, by and large, he represents what is the Congress is all about — an economic, social and political ideology that is broadly social democratic.

Thirdly, he has worked in large organisations… so he has an organisational experience. This thing about him not having worked within the Congress and therefore not having organisational experience is not a valid argument, I think. You have to have the ability to work in some organisation or the other. In fact, sometimes I feel too much of an organisational experience actually weakens one’s ability to bring in changes and reforms, because you become a victim of the system you served for so long.

The fourth reason is, he has the ability to attract a lot of new groups into the Congress, especially the groups we are challenged by. The whole articulation about the fact that it is an English-speaking crowd… these are people…there are crores of such people — who are aspirational, who want to study well, who want to do well on their own, who are looking for role models among successful people — and he attracts them. If you take these 4-5 categories, he is a fairly decent choice. Over time, some other names came up. I find him to be a far more attractive figure than those other faces.

* And the division within the so-called G-23?

First of all, G-23 was no group. What they said in the letter in 2020… I have been saying since 2015. So, I didn’t need a group to articulate what I have been saying. And many members of the G-23 actually became angry because they were personally not obliged, not because they had too much of reforms on their mind, but I don’t mind joining anybody for a good purpose. So, the G-23 was restricted to the articles of the letter, so long as they, in their own view, advanced those… what we had written in the letter is good enough. If people want to withdraw from a good path they have taken… it is their issue. In any case, G-23 was not formed to push any presidential candidate.

Let’s remember that. It is not a political group within the Congress. It was not pushing any names… people were trying to put this position that G-23 was against some people… it was neither against some people nor was it for some people. Frankly speaking, if there was no G-23, we wouldn’t be having this election. Not that one should say I said it or we said it, but these are things that should have anyway happened under normal circumstances…sometimes it takes an outsider to remind you to continue doing what you should be doing.

* One criticism now is that it began as an election in which the Gandhis professed neutrality, but ended up becoming a selection… what with the AICC establishment getting together to field a candidate.

I don’t think you can put the finger on the Gandhis, because whatever I have gathered from the people I have met… those who have met any one of the Gandhis and professed that they would like to stand… all of them have come back to say they (the Gandhis) have been very encouraging, and have said they are not in favour of any one name. So, I don’t think the question should be asked of the Gandhis themselves… Rather, it should be asked of those who want to give an impression that they are the official candidate.

I think it is a travesty of the will of the current Congress president if some people want to represent the establishment. Frankly speaking they should be ashamed to say so. It is, in fact, a coup against the establishment.

* Nobody has said so. It is a perception. Mallikarjun Kharge has said he is a candidate for all.

I am saying if somebody wants to give (such) an impression… they should be ashamed of it. If they are not giving that impression… well and good. I also know people who feel this is not an election but selection, but I would tend to believe that it is still an election. Whether people are actually truly democratic, in the sense of democracy within the party, is a question they have to ask for themselves. And this is a question we should ask once the elections are over.

* You went to Gujarat once. You have been putting out graphics comparing the record of the AAP government in Delhi with the Sheila Dikshit government. What is the state of the Congress in Delhi?

I don’t know much. I hardly engage myself with the Congress in Delhi. I don’t know what they are up to, or what they want to do. Occasionally they call me for some meetings. If I think it is worthwhile, I go. They are having these demonstrations and dharnas… if I can join, I do, because I am a Congress person and I believe it is good to be part of any Congress campaign. But I don’t spend much time in Delhi in any case.

* Do you see a Congress revival in Delhi? You have been an MP from Delhi.

Delhi, as with India, is very, very clear. Whatever I have been saying in public — and that’s only half the information I possess, there’s much more I’m unaware of — is that you basically have to expose the hollowness of Kejriwal and his government. There are articles in newspapers that claim enrolment in schools has gone up considerably. In 2021-22, their enrolment was only 16.10 lakh. Now, they show it to be above 18 lakh. I had pointed out three figures. One is that if the Congress government had continued, we would have had about 21-22 lakh children in Delhi schools, going by the rate of rise in enrolment in our time. If it is 18 (lakh), then it is much less. It is said that enrolment has risen post-Covid, as people have lost their income [government schools are free], and that it is also because of better education quality. But this would mean that the education quality was not there for the first seven years (of Kejriwal). In Mrs Dikshit’s last year, the total enrolment was 16.20 lakh. In every subsequent year, it fell below that.

* How do you see the Bharat Jodo Yatra from a Congress revival point of view?

What has come out of the Yatra, beyond what people really thought would happen… is because of the inactivity of the party for a long period of time… either we were not able to find direction, or any good idea to implement… or (it was) just pure lethargy… whatever be the case, we are finally doing something to which people are responding. And because this has happened, Congressmen and women, and people who are anti-BJP or who are sympathisers of the Congress… a lot of them found that this is something we must attach ourselves with.. that it is a worthwhile thing to do. I think this has excited both our cadres, the non-BJP supporters and the Congress sympathisers alike. It is like a moment that has given all of us something to believe in and be a part of. After almost 3-4 years of lying low with nothing really happening… suddenly people have found life and purpose in the Bharat Jodo Yatra.

Sometimes, some things just click. The Yatra has something that has clicked. Leaders are finding they should go to it, workers are finding that it is a good thing to be with… that it is not just a spectacle or a simple yatra. People are actually coming to be part of what is a Bharat Yatra. People are not coming to see what is happening, they are actually coming for what is called a Bharat Jodo Yatra… whether they are coming to put India together, or because they are against inflation… somebody is coming for employment, somebody is coming for the sheer pleasure of watching… or they are political aware.. whatever be the reason…. the fact is that people are joining. It is an expression of being sympathetic to what we are doing. It is a very big thing.

* Shashi Tharoor has framed the election as a contest between status quo and change, which he represents. How do you see it?

Because of the attributes that I have given about him, he certainly is very different from others. His style of work.. like, he put out a manifesto… shows a structured mind. It shows that you need to have some idea of what you want to do before you start doing it. All that is a little strange to the way Congress works. I have never seen any PCC president — once they become one — put out a manifesto, or list 10 things they need to do, except for large speeches that they give. He has a freshness about him… no doubt about it.