‘Delhi University deserves to be in the global 300… (for this) teachers should have a research mindset’: V-C at Idea Exchange

We did it in a transparent way. It was totally computerised and admissions were made as per the choice of the students and their performance in the Common University Entrance Test (CUET). It was a good experience, and based on this, we will make it more user-friendly next year.

Sukrita Baruah: Have there been substantive changes brought about by this admission process?

The first and foremost reason (to bring about change) was the disparity among boards. As per the data, we realised that some boards are very lenient and some are very strict. But when we admit students across the country, without any normalisation, then some students, who come from a strict board, do not get a fair chance. Now with this test, the chances are equal. It depends on your preparedness. As of today, out of the 55,000 students we have admitted, 47,790 students are from CBSE, which is reasonable because CBSE is not Delhi alone, it is the entire country. About 2,000 students are from the ICSE board. Close to 1,280 are from Bihar board. We admitted 1,022 students from UP board, 765 from Rajasthan, 436 from Haryana, 350 from Kerala, 312 from Madhya Pradesh board, 278 from J&K board and 153 from Jharkhand board. If the same trends prevail next time also, then we can say that we have fair representation from every state. We have already requested the National Testing Agency (NTA) and University Grants Commission (UGC) to conduct this test twice a year. One, before the Plus Two examination, and one, after it to judge the best performance.

Sukrita Baruah: It was very difficult for students from science to get admission into humanities. Will it be reviewed?

Right now, our policy is, if you have not studied the course at the Plus Two level, your marks will not be considered. In Delhi University, if you have studied physics, maths and chemistry, then you should appear through physics and chemistry. You should not take political science or social science. Here, the presumption is that the school system is making an effort for the development of a student. But as a system should we allow this? If the policymakers also feel that we should open 100 per cent, we will discuss this.

Earlier, when we admitted students from across the country, without any normalisation, those from a strict board did not get a fair chance. Now, with CUET, the chances are equal. It depends on preparedness

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Ritika Chopra: With regard to CUET, the NTA was overwhelmed by the large number of papers. Would you rather have fewer papers  for admissions?

This was the largest examination conducted by any agency in the entire world. There were so many languages, that’s why it became very difficult. Next year, they will be better prepared.

Earlier, when we admitted students from across the country, without any normalisation, those from a strict board did not get a fair chance. Now, with CUET, the chances are equal. It depends on preparedness

Ritika Chopra: Has CUET really served its purpose, because the changes that we see are marginal?

What you’re saying is true. As per the data, there is only a 10 per cent change. But CBSE has some inherent advantages because the curriculum is based on NCERT. For students of many other boards, we had provided a few options in the test where they can skip a few questions. The NTA and UGC should think about providing more options that will be beneficial for state-board students.

Mallica Joshi: CUET basically favours CBSE because the curriculum is the same. Does that put state-board students at a disadvantage?

It is too early to say because we only have first-time data. We can comment on this only after two or three years.

Making the syllabus isn’t the issue, the implementation is. What’s in making a syllabus? Just pick it up from Harvard. You can ensure a teacher’s entry and exit in the class, but finally, it depends on his style and ethics

Rahul Sabharwal: DU is the aspirational university for most of India. Do you think there is a need to expand to admit more students?

It took 100 years for DU to become a university and a respected brand. Yes, I’m all for expansion and we will create new institutions in Delhi. But we should create more facilities and infrastructure in the existing institutions because that is easy to implement.

Rahul Sabharwal: What do you think is required to get off-campus colleges to the level of a Stephens or a SRCC?

First, they should have regular teachers. What we have done is to conduct interviews. There were 4,000 vacancies in the colleges and in some of the departments, interviews had not been held for the last 20 years. Also, every institution should work from 8 am to 8 pm. I think then we can easily have one, two or three sections more in colleges. We have also opened a university for citizens — competency enhancement schemes. We are starting course-based registration from January 1 for Delhi citizens.

Sourav Roy Barman: Eight institutes of DU have been declared as Institutes of Eminence. How much have you received in terms of funding and are you happy with the inflow?

The issue is not funds but our poor implementation. The government had given an initial grant of Rs 30-40 crore, but the additional amount will be released once we start the construction. In 2018-19, the government gave Rs 300 crore and DU could not spend even a single penny. Universities should also be proactive and have the zeal. Money is not a problem. We have Rs 400 crore in the University Development Fund.

Mallica Joshi: Over the past 10 years, the issue of granting autonomy to colleges has risen. What is your view?

Had I not been the vice-chancellor of this institution then my answer would have been yes, we should grant autonomy… But here, the structure is very different. Most Indian universities do not have this type of structure. This is a collegiate model, primarily copied from the University of London. This means, they are part of the university and are not affiliated with a university… At DU, most of the activities, politics and student issues are in the colleges; the university takes care. Affiliated colleges mean you are with us for academic purposes and examinations only. But here administrative control is of the university.

Ritika Chopra: But on the ground, every college is operating on its own, it has its own governing bodies.

But in the governing bodies also, we have our own representative. For interviews, the university provides experts. In the appointment of the principal, and for so many things, DU’s role is defined. But for an affiliated institution, our role is not there.

If universities have to flourish then we should have money. For that, government will support but the alumni should also support… To get praise or money out of people in India is very difficult

Ritika Chopra: But what is your apprehension?

It is a very tricky thing. First of all, we will have to amend our rules. Autonomous rules are for affiliated institutions, not for constituent. The total structure of the university will have to be redesigned. We will have to amend the Act of the University.

Making the syllabus isn’t the issue, the implementation is. What’s in making a syllabus? Just pick it up from Harvard. You can ensure a teacher’s entry and exit in the class, but finally, it depends on his style and ethics

Ritika Chopra: So you’re saying there are practical difficulties?

Yes, there are practical difficulties. But suppose the government tomorrow says that every institution will be a degree-awarding institution, then they have to implement new acts for every university.

Ritika Chopra: How does DU attract talent, especially at a time when you have private universities coming up?

I’m not afraid of any private university, they will take years to compete with us. But the point is, we have to strengthen our own systems. It’s still a very good institution.

Ritika Chopra: Do you see foreign universities as a threat?

No, but we have to compete internationally. Our competition should be with Harvard, Oxford, and other good institutions. If we have to have some benchmarks, those are the benchmarks…

Sukrita Baruah: What are the other parameters of weaknesses which DU needs to work on?

The quality of research. For example, we are publishing papers, but internationally, they consider only those papers which are Scopus-indexed. Scopus is a quality trademark. Last time, we produced 802 PhDs… but we are not very quality conscious. Another (point) is the impact of research. Third, is the income generated from the research. We don’t have many success stories. We have to change that culture and the mindset of our teachers also. Normally, what happens is that teachers are satisfied after the publication of a good research paper. But now the time has come to think beyond that.

We have now constituted two companies — Section 8 companies (an independent entity of Delhi University). Section 8 is a new thing for public institutions. We have appointed a CEO and the job of the company is to raise money, from anywhere, alumni, CSR funding… If we have that kind of money, it that can be invested in research. We have another company to promote innovations. For that, then (we need) incubators and so on.

Sukrita Baruah: Does this growth have to be largely driven by the science departments of the university?

Yes, because science faculty and students are accustomed to and have the environment for publishing quality research papers. But others are not used to it. For example, law. In the law faculty, we have so many students but there is no culture of publications.

Harish Damodaran: You can enforce this in postgraduate institutions, for instance, the Delhi School of Economics have an illustrious alumni.

Economics is good and we have a rank. But we want to improve… The parameters by which their success is defined, we are doing extremely well. But those are not suitable for international ranking. This is what I want to say. Either we have to ask them to change, or we should change. Is it academically good or not, that is also a question. Should we entirely focus on those rankings? How far? Society doesn’t appreciate if the rank is down. And from Delhi University they don’t want to accept it.

Delhi University deserves to be in the first 500 best universities of the world. No, 300. We should work hard… Many people say, we should have our own NRIF ranking. We should compete with international rankings.

Shubhajit Roy: Is there a way to rank the colleges within DU?

There’s no need. Our colleges and their parameters are different. Out of 10 best colleges of India, seven are from DU. Out of 20, 14 are from DU. Miranda (House) is the best institution in NIRF ranking. This is from DU. Second and third are also from DU. Because colleges don’t have that research component. Parameters are different. That’s why we are doing extremely well. Tomorrow if you change parameters, these universities will fall. If we say we want a research-intensive institution, then focus should be on research. But colleges are primarily for quality teaching and DU colleges are best. If you add research to it, everyone will have a problem. It is unnecessary, not required.

But university teaching departments for PGs and PhDs, our students are doing very good research. For example, social sciences research is very different and their impact is also very different. But when the ranking is done, it is the total number of publications divided by the total number of teachers. With that parameter, the effect of science is gone. It is a very rudimentary type of ranking system, but that’s the reality.

Rahul Sabharwal: Could you also weigh in on this tussle between the Delhi government and the 12-odd colleges that are funded by it?

We are working with the Delhi government that they should release required funds to the institution. But there are issues. The government is saying they are not utilising funds, that is not true. Whatever they get, they are utilising. But yes, they are not getting adequate funds. Reason is, in many colleges, many positions are not sanctioned by the government. But you can always ask why is this (happening)? Why has this erupted only in the last two-three years? As per law, colleges can create posts and appoint teachers, it is their job. But the government says if you want to appoint someone and you want to ask me to pay, then my approval is required. Here lies the conflict. But now the administrative department of Delhi government has approved; this issue should be resolved.

Sukrita Baruah: Are the companies that DU has set up part of the UGC push?

We took advantage of that but when I was VC in DTU, we established such companies there and they’re doing very well.

Sukrita Baruah: Is this part of a larger push for financial independence for institutes, by the government?

Not really. For Delhi University, our budget is around 1,000 crore and 1,000 crore is for salary plus pension. Then project wise, we get funding from the government…The point isn’t that. It’s not possible in public institutions, you cannot make them self-sustained. If universities have to flourish then we should have money. For that, government will support but alumni should also support…to get praise or money from people in India is very difficult.

Mallica Joshi: You go into a four-year programme system from this year. How is it going to be different?

The timing is different and the government is pushing very hard. Secondly, this is not mandatory. After three years, if someone wants, they will get a BSc Honours or BA honours degree. And then after first year and second year also, there are exit options. This is a comprehensive plan of the Government of India through UGC, to provide multiple entry, multiple exit. But suppose, someone really wants to continue in the four-year programme, it’s okay. It may be beneficial for them to go to foreign countries, then you can directly register for PhD.

Sukrita Baruah: There have been apprehensions, DU has only finalised the syllabus for the first semester.

This is not the issue. Because first semester is ready, the second semester will happen. Let’s see what students demand and choose, then we’ll design these courses. Making the syllabus isn’t the issue, the implementation is. We should have skill-development centres, tie-ups with NGOs; we always fail in implementation. What’s in making a syllabus? Just pick it up from Harvard. You can ensure a teacher’s entry and exit in the class, but finally it’s the teacher’s style and ethics.

Sukrita Baruah: Even before FYUP, DU needed to increase its capacity for the EWS quota. Has that been implemented?

EWS Additional sanctions we have not received. We don’t have a right to talk about it. They’ll say, you have 4,000 positions that you can’t fill, now you want more… we have submitted proposals to the government, that’s not the issue. But first of all, within six to eight months, we should fill these vacancies. After that, we’ll ask, they’ll give. Otherwise in the first question, they’ll ask our immediate vacancy. We are tuning ourselves for that.

Ritika Chopra: How much funding was promised to you? You were supposed to increase seats by 25 per cent.

I don’t know about funds.

Ritika Chopra: What is the one thing you would like to change in DU?

Delhi University deserves to be in the first 500 best universities of the world. No, 300. We should work hard… Many people say, we should have our own NRIF ranking. We should compete with international rankings. The research culture must change, with teachers who are in the university and those whom we recruit. They should have a research mindset, an exposure to quality publications. We will also establish a technology transfer company. Only then, we will generate some funds and our teachers should be allowed to run their own commands. This is a new thing in our higher education system which the government is slowly opening up to. Maybe something will change.

Why Yogesh Singh

Professor Yogesh Singh has been vice-chancellor of Delhi University for over a year. During this time, he helmed the implementation of some the big changes at Delhi University, such as the new admission process and the implementation of the new four-year undergraduate programme. He has also initiated the setting up of firms to host incubators and promote innovation. A Section 8, not-for-profit, company has been started to help the university generate funds from the alumni and other organisations. Before this, Singh was the vice-chancellor of MS University Baroda and Delhi Technological University (DTU).