‘I will be acquitted long before the assembly elections are held’

A criminal case was registered against me by the Himachal Pradesh government,a combined effort of (Himachal Pradesh) Chief Minister Prem Kumar Dhumal,and DGP Mr (D S) Minhas. They put up a false case with fabricated evidence against me. I have not yet been charged. The media wrongly reported that I have already been charged. The High Court judge said he intended to charge me only on two counts. This entire thing is false and has been fabricated on the basis of a CD that has never been authenticated. The judge has said that the CD is not a part of the evidence. But still,he has taken cognisance of the evidence the prosecution has adduced on the basis of the CD. So I thought it was my moral duty to resign. I have always stood for probity in public life. I said that if I have been charged or the court says there is an intention to charge me,then it is my moral duty to quit the government. I don’t want the Prime Minister or the Congress party president to be embarrassed on my account.

D K Singh: Did either of them ask you to resign?

No,they didn’t. I told the Congress president of my intention and then I submitted my resignation to the PM. I told him I must resign. If I have done something wrong,then I must face the consequences thereof and if I have done nothing wrong then I will be honourably acquitted which I am sure I will be.

Coomi Kapoor: You said Mr Dhumal was responsible for making the false charges against you,but the incriminating CD was distributed by Congressmen.

No,that is not how it happened. When the CD came to light,at that time,Mr Dhumal was fighting the Lok Sabha by-elections from Hamirpur and he was in a very tight corner. Somehow he got hold of this CD and he bargained with one Vijay Singh Mankotia. I do not know what transpired between them. Then he called a press conference where he released the CD. That was two days before the polling. Within 15 minutes of the CD being released,it was playing in all the assembly segments of Hamirpur parliamentary constituency. It was a preconceived,pre-planned operation. I filed a defamation suit against Mr Mankotia which is still pending in the High Court.

D K Singh: If the Congress wins the forthcoming assembly elections and the case is still pending against you,what then?

I don’t think the case will take so long. There are only one or two charges. The judgment should come much before that. Mr Dhumal is behind it and he has done this before,when he first became chief minister. Then I became chief minister again and the police told me there were many charges that could be framed against him. I said,no,I don’t want Himachal Pradesh to become another Punjab or another Tamil Nadu where every new government takes political revenge by framing charges against their predecessors. I wanted to have a healthy atmosphere. So,I did nothing although there were substantial cases against him. When he came back to power,Mr Minhas was made DGP after superseding four senior officers.

Shekhar Gupta: What is this tape?

This was something pertaining to 1989 but nobody has authenticated the CD.

Coomi Kapoor: Apart from the tape,the court has mentioned a cement factory being set up without the clearance of the relevant ministers.

No,that is wrong. If somebody gave me a bribe for setting up a cement factory,then do you think it will be only Rs 2 lakh?

Pranab Dhal Samanta: Are you saying that you will not take any public office before you are acquitted?

I am saying that I will be acquitted long before the assembly elections are held.

Pranab Dhal Samanta: But till your acquittal,you will not hold public office?

Naturally. If I have taken a moral stand,then I should stick to it.

D K Singh: You have said that the Congress must declare its chief ministerial candidate before the elections.

I am not saying this in the context of Himachal Pradesh alone. This has been my constant view for the past two years. India is a big country with big states. During Pandit Nehru’s time as prime minister,there were stalwarts in the states—that’s what kept the party together and the country together. Now the state leadership is almost finished. India cannot be run from Delhi. There has to be a strong infrastructure of the party led by competent people in the states as well.

Shekhar Gupta: After 2013 or 2014,you will not find many seats in the Rajya Sabha because there will be no numbers in your states.

In a functioning democracy like ours which has two chambers,an upper house and a lower house,most of the ministers should be from the Lok Sabha. Most of the party general secretaries should be from the Lok Sabha.

Coomi Kapoor: And the Prime Minister?

No,the Prime Minister can be from either House. That does not matter.

Dilip Bobb: Vijay Singh Mankotia was a staunch Congressman. Is there any personal rivalry behind the accusations against you?

He tried to blackmail me. I filed a suit against him in the High Court. He tendered an unconditional apology and I let him off the first time. The second time he did this shady business,I filed a defamation suit against him and that is pending in the High Court.

Coomi Kapoor: Do you fear that what happened to Harish Rawat in Uttarakhand will happen to you after the elections in Himachal Pradesh? That the goodwill you enjoy will be exploited for the polls but if the Congress wins,someone else will be made the chief minister?

That depends on destiny. I am not fighting to be chief minister. I want the Congress to come back to power and the BJP regime under Mr Dhumal to be removed from power. I have never in my long public life seen such a corrupt government as Mr Dhumal’s.

Raghavendra Rao: Don’t you think the controversy over this CD and your subsequent resignation is going to affect the Congress’s performance in the state?

The people of the state know me and I know them. I don’t think any such slur which certain people want to put on me will stick at all.

Raghavendra Rao: There is the recent phenomenon of incumbent governments returning to power. There is talk of the BJP government returning to power in Himachal. How do you react to that?

That is a pipe dream…unless Congress fails the people. But if it comes out in full force,the BJP cannot win.

D K Singh: Who do you think should be the Congress’s chief ministerial candidate?

Let the high command decide. I joined the Congress 50 years ago and I have not left the party even for a minute. I have been with the party through thick and thin. Based on 50 years of experience,I think it is high time that the person who is going to lead the state should be properly selected and declared before the elections. People want to know under whose leadership the government is going to be formed. It will be in the best interests of the party. This is my personal opinion.

Maneesh Chhibber: This experiment was tried in Punjab during the last elections when Amarinder Singh was named as the CM candidate,but it failed.

It should have been done well before. It was done just one or two days before polling and that is wrong.

Manoj CG: Does the BJP expect Team Anna to campaign against the Congress in Himachal because they have made some allegations against you? Will it make any difference?

Though people have respect there for Anna Hazare as a person,I don’t think they think very highly of what he did.

D K Singh: When UPA-II came to power,there were as many as nine former chief ministers in the Union Cabinet. What difference did it make to governance?

I think they were better ministers,they knew their jobs,they were conversant with dealing of files,with taking decisions. That experience counts. I never lobbied for being in the Cabinet.

Maneesh Chhibber: Mr Dhumal has been saying that for the first time,a ruling party is going to buck the anti-incumbency trend in Himachal and that the BJP is going to win.

On what basis is he claiming that he will come back to power? In the history of Himachal Pradesh,there has not been a more corrupt government than this one.

Coomi Kapoor: What do you think about other BJP leaders like Shanta Kumar?

Shanta Kumar is a gentleman and a good human being. He tries to give justice to everybody. He did not try to harass or victimise. He acted as per the law in every case. But Dhumal is law unto himself.

D K Singh: You have been part of the UPA-II government. Why has everything gone haywire in this government,in terms of governance?

I do not think that things went haywire. Much of it is political hype or media hype. I don’t agree with this. For example,this spectrum issue has occupied so much of national space that people are talking about it as though it is the only thing that is happening. The national space has been occupied by so-called scandals. Emphasis was laid on scandals rather than on the positive sides of the government. When the dust settles,you will realise it was much ado about nothing. Look at India’s size—there is bound to be something wrong,somewhere. There can be something wrong with particular departments or ministries,but the entire government cannot be painted with the same brush.

D K Singh: The PM has taken over the finance portfolio. Who would be your pick as the next Finance Minister?

I think the Prime Minister himself is a very good economist and as Finance Minister in Narasimha Rao’s government,he did wonderfully well. Today,India can’t be seen in isolation. Even strong economies have been affected by economic woes.

D K Singh: What if the PM decides to give the portfolio to someone else? Who would be your pick?

It is his prerogative to decide that. He may give it to a non-politician. He may choose someone from outside Parliament.

Maneesh Chhibber: There is a feeling that the Congress leadership has dumped Narasimha Rao. Why is the Congress afraid of remembering Rao?

Every year when the House sits on special occasions,his portrait is among the leaders. I have seen his portrait whenever there is an AICC meeting or national convention. He has not been dumped. One may differ with his policies but he was the PM who started liberalisation and we must recognise that.

Coomi Kapoor: Non-Himachalis are not allowed to buy land in Himachal Pradesh but an exception has been made for VIPs like Priyanka Vadra,Prashant Bhushan and Ramdev.

Prashant Bhushan has bought a very big tea garden estate there. Unless he starts building flats there,it is not a problem. As for Priyanka Vadra,it is at the discretion of the government. We allow distinguished people and army personnel to buy land.

D K Singh: Is the time right for Priyanka Vadra to enter politics?

That is her decision.

Maneesh Chhibber: Congress is losing out in the states now,especially in the southern states of Tamil Nadu and Andhra Pradesh. Even in Karnataka,the situation is not rosy. What will revive the party?

We should have a massive membership campaign in the states,hold party elections on the basis of genuine membership and have experienced people at regional levels. You can’t have people on deputation.

Dilip Bobb: Do you think Pranab Mukherjee’s absence will have an impact on the government?

Yes. He is a very good choice for the post of President. There could not have been a better choice. But at the same time,his departure from the government is a setback to the government. He is the trouble-shooter in the government. His contribution in this field cannot be underestimated. He has been a great asset to the government. He tackled every problem. Whenever there was a problem,people turned to him for help. But nothing is static. He deserves to be President of India. I will vote for him.

Swaraj Thapa: Should there be a retirement age in politics?

I don’t think so. It depends on the person. If one is in good health and agile,why should one retire?

Swaraj Thapa: Would the senior leadership make way for the younger leaders in 2014? Will you contest the next Lok

Sabha election or the assembly elections?

I will not contest the Lok Sabha elections. As for the assembly elections,I am not sure. It all depends on circumstances but I prefer not to. I am a satisfied person. I will campaign actively for the elections in Himachal Pradesh. If the party asks me,I will contest.

Transcribed by Pragya Kaushika & Jayant Sriram