‘The real problem is not income inequality, it is inequality of opportunity’

• How difficult is it to get the data required to compute human development indices from ‘closed’ societies? Is the women’s HDR from Arab countries a first for UNDP?

Data for the construction of human development indices is generally available at the country level though it may vary in quality, reliability and timeliness. In the Arab region, we don’t have reliable figures now for Iraq and Somalia. However, you encounter serious problems not only in ‘closed’ societies but almost everywhere when you try to obtain disaggregated data on human development — for women and men, for different ethnic groups, minority communities and so on — and at the level of the states and districts. It is only by monitoring trends — both levels and disparities — at the disaggregated level can we really trace progress. Averages and macrolevel data mask serious inequalities and low levels of achievements.

One important qualification. We need to look beyond the numbers when issues of gender equality are being assessed. Parity in indicators may not necessarily imply equality and non-discrimination.

The Human Development Reports from UNDP have always had a strong gender perspective built into the analysis. The 1995 HDR had gender and women as its main themes. It discussed the under-valuation of women’s work and argued that development unless engendered is endangered. Several other reports since then made gender their main theme. For the Arab region, this is the first extensive analysis of the gender question though the first Arab HDR released in 2002 highlighted the serious deficit in women’s rights.

• Does it not confirm stereotypes about women in Islam?

At some level, stereotyping is necessary if a strong attack is to be made against the violation of human rights or unfair treatment — by men and against women. The challenge when examining gender issues is to ensure that society recognises the stereotyping of women. Discrimination against girls and women has gone on for so long that it is difficult to spot inequities and injustice.

The report acknowledges this stereotyping but at the same time it points to several changes sweeping women in Arab countries.

• The report’s prescription is to ensure “more space to women outside homes”. But how is that possible unless other things change as well?

Women’s employment outside the home brings several benefits apart from the additional incomes. It gives the woman an opportunity to gain greater exposure to the world, get better informed to take better decisions and so on. This eventually gets reflected in better health-seeking and caring behaviour, better nutrition and education of children. But the biggest challenge is to get society — including women — to see the gains, both personal and societal. This can happen if women demand and create more space for themselves, and two, if legislative and other societal changes create an enabling environment for women to work outside the home.

• Much has been said about the emancipatory role of the Arab novel and new filmmakers in mirroring the aspirations of Arab women.

I see an important role of literature, novels and films in shaping perceptions, changing mindsets and affecting the image of women and importantly, the behaviour of men in society. The Arab HDR devotes a whole chapter to a discussion of these influences. How do we make the popular forms of expression more gender sensitive? I would push for three things. One, discussions on gender equality must become part of the everyday public discourse on development. Two, more women artists, women writers and women film producers must get an opportunity to pursue their interests. And three, we need to see greater involvement of women in public activities.

• It is said that other than in Saudi Arabia, the participation of Arab women in government is on the rise. How important is this?

Increased women’s participation and more active involvement in public decision making is crucial if we want a more secure and humane society. The greater involvement of Arab women in governments is welcome. But it is equally important to ensure greater participation of women in all other spheres of public activity as well — in politics, in the judiciary, in academics, in civil society movements, and more broadly, in promoting public action.

• What does a completely different ranking for the same country in conventional economic terms and in HDI terms say about economic processes in that country?

Take countries like Sri Lanka and Vietnam that do much better in terms of the HDI ranking than in terms of per capita income ranking. They tell us that a country does not have to become rich first in order to assure a decent quality of life for people. It is possible to do well on human capabilities even at relatively low levels of income. On the other hand, take a country like Saudi Arabia that does much better in terms of its per capita income ranking than it does on HDI. This suggests that economic opulence does not necessarily translate into enhanced capabilities that people value and cherish — such as better health, education and more opportunities.

• What is more important, in terms of stability — higher HDI or lower level of income inequality? Is there a conflict?

I find the preoccupation with income inequality quite tiresome. The real concern ought to be with the inequality of opportunities — economic, social, cultural and political — between women and men, different ethnic groups, rural and urban residents, and so on.

Higher incomes do not necessarily ensure equal opportunities. At the same time, the market as an institution is not concerned with equality. This is not to blame markets but to point out that the state and civil society have distinct roles to play in ensuring an equitable expansion and distribution of opportunities.

Arab Human Development Report 2005

• The number of Arab countries that appoint women as ministers has increased in the last three years to the extent that women now participate in all governments except one (Saudi Arabia)

• Arab civil society organisations took a higher profile, thrusting themselves into the public space with increasing vigour and impact

• The participation of women in civil society organisations for legal and political action further helped to re-educate society to accept an active female presence

• The Report calls for a temporary adoption of the principle of affirmative action in expanding the participation of Arab women to all fields of human activity according to the particular circumstances of each society

• Women often rise to the challenge of coping with harsh changes and have proved to be the protectors of social existence in exceptionally tough situations as is the case with women under siege and sanctions in Iraq, and under the multi-faceted violence afflicting Sudan, Lebanon, Iraq and Palestine