Well have to carry everybody with us…we have an open mind on all demands. (Lokpal) is not an issue where one should be rigid

There has been a hue and cry that the government has not taken adequate steps to curb corruption. I disagree. At the All India Congress Convention in 2010,Sonia Gandhi said the government must strengthen the anti-corruption mechanism. The PM constituted a committee under Pranab Mukherjee with P Chidambaram,Kapil Sibal,Salman Khurshid,Veerappa Moily and mea GoM on corruption. The mandate was to prepare a strong Lokpal Bill,work on electoral reforms to counter money power and the manipulation of elections by parties or individuals,and administrative and judicial reforms. Then Anna Hazare started the Jan Lokpal agitation. The major corruption is at the state level. The states should be more careful in curbing corruption. They say they want a strong Lokpal Bill at the Centre but they dont want Lokayukta at the state-level. Lokpal is one of the legislative measures that will have some control on corruption but it is not the only weapon to curb corruption.

Amitabh Sinha: Why does the government blame the BJP for not supporting the Bill in Parliament when it was your allies who let you down?

I am blaming the BJP for three-four reasons. First,in the Standing Committee,the BJP gave in writing while submitting their dissenting note that they will agree to constitutional status for Lokpal. However,in Parliament,it joined hands with the Left and other parties to defeat that amendment.

Second,if you look at the bill drafted during the NDA regime,the Lokpal search committee comprised the Vice President of India as chairman,PM,Lok Sabha Speaker,the leaders of the Opposition in Lok Sabha and Rajya Sabha,Home Minister and if PM was from one House,the leader of the other House. Under the present Bill there are five government nominees. But in the old bill by BJP, it was loaded with more government nominees. Thirdly,on the Prime Minister. Initially,we had some reservations about including the PM within Lokpal but then we brought in the office of the prime minister with certain reservations for internal security,law and order issues,security of the state,space and atomic energy and international relations. Except in these five areas,the Prime Minister is answerable to the Lokpal. But when Vajpayeeji was PM and he proposed that the Prime Minister should come under the Lokpal,the same people who are now insisting the PM be under Lokpal,opposed it. They kept this Bill pending for two years,then it was shelved. Sushma Swaraj,Arun Jaitley,Ananth Kumar,they were the ministers who argued against the Prime Minister within Lokpal. Pranab Mukherjee was the chairman of the Standing Committee,then,and he submitted two reservationsinternational relations and internal security. When the Bill was to be presented in Parliament,they stalled it to show that they were more loyal than the king. Fourth,we have a minority population of 15 crore in the country. We discussed minority representation in Lokpal and other parties supported it but the BJP said remove that clause. Fifth,the CBI and CBI directors selection. We have suggested a selection panel of PM,Leader of Opposition,Lok Sabha and Chief Justice or his nominee. The BJP objected to the Chief Justice. I think the BJP wants Anna Hazares agitation to continue for political reasons. They are saying they want a strong Lokpal Bill in Parliament and then introduce contrary amendments to make the Lokpal weak.

Nistula Hebbar: On the day Lokpal Bill was debated in Rajya Sabha,the government knew quite early it didnt have the numbers to pass the Bill. Yet the debate was allowed to continue. Why didnt the government admit the lack of numbers and adjourn the House earlier?

The House was up only till midnight December 29. There were many speakers. They wanted the voting before my reply. My reply was disrupted by the members. They submitted amendments. Its the government’s prerogative to say which amendments it should accept and which not to accept. The government doesnt want a truncated Lokpal Bill to be passed by Parliament. The stand of the BJP in the Lok Sabha was that the Bill should be sent to a joint select committee. Sushma Swaraj said so. In Rajya Sabha,Arun Jaitley said all 187 amendments proposed by various political parties had to be incorporated and then the Bill should be passed.

Why do we oppose the Jan Lokpal Bill? The Jan Lokpal Bill wants to have one organisation,Lokpal,with the executive,the judiciary and the legislature under it. They want MPs to be brought under the Lokpal,they want the entire bureaucracy to come under it. The Indian constitution has a fine balanceall organs of government have to function independently of each other without affecting the jurisdiction of the other. By giving power to one monster called the LokpalI call it a monster because one organisation will have all the powerswho will control that organisation?

The government thought it fit to have a fine balancethe citizens right to grievance redressal is separate,Lokpal is there as the final appellate authority. We would like to stabilise the existing system and improve upon the system of the CVC,the CBI,etc. If you give all the powers to the Lokpal,that is not going to solve the problems of corruption.

Shekhar Gupta: The government could have said we will bring the Bill back when Rajya Sabha reassembles. Instead,everything was done at the last minute when it looked as if some kind of match-fixing had been done.

There was no match-fixing. Every political partys stand is known to everybody. For example,the BSP during the all-party meeting said the PM should not be brought under the ambit of the Bill. They said the CBI should function independently. They changed their stand at the second all-party meeting. Political parties are always changing the goalposts. Pawan Bansalji (Parliamentary Affairs Minister) said in Parliament that if the Bill which had been passed by the Lok Sabha is agreed to in the Rajya Sabha,then the Bill can be passed in two minutes. But we dont want a truncated Bill.

Vandita Mishra: Youve said that parties changed their goalposts. What about the Trinamool Congress that opposed the Bill in the Rajya Sabha?

The Trinamool Congress said clearly that unless the state government agrees,the Lokayukta part of the Bill will not be implemented in the states. The government agreed. We have said the clause in the Bill will come into operation only after the prior consent of the state governments. The TMC supported us in the Lok Sabha. When it came to the Rajya Sabha,they were not satisfied. Ultimately,they said they would not support the Lokayukta part of the Bill. Some political parties also took a tough stand that the Bill should not be hurriedLalu Prasad Yadav and Mulayam Singh Yadav said that. They said the government should have a re-look. But we did not agree to this because the government gave a lot of opportunities to political parties and to civil society organisations. We say,let the Bill be passed. Then,whatever amendments are needed,we can discuss them. The Bill is not static. But they want all the amendments incorporated otherwise they will not accept itthat cannot be accepted.

Raj Kamal Jha: You have said you will bring the Lokpal Bill back. What will you do different this time?

The governments commitment is to give a strong and effective Lokpal Bill. In March and April,we have the Budget session of Parliament. The PM will discuss the matter with the political partiesand the 187 amendments. In the history of India,no Bill has had so many amendments. Well have to carry everybody with us. We have an open mind on all the demands. This is not an issue where one should be rigid. There should be a give and take. We will go to certain extent,let them come to certain extent and we will try to reach a meeting point. We should not be blamed for giving a weak Lokpal Bill. We would like to overcome differences by talking to other political parties.

Maneesh Chhibber: Theres a general feeling that the CBI is not totally independent of the government. One of the ways out could be to separate the directorate of prosecution,take it out of the CBIs control and make it independent,which the Supreme Court said in the Vineet Narain case. This has been under consideration since 1995. What is happening on that?

I am the minister with administrative control of the CBI,which means we oversee transfers,give financial support to the CBI,thats all. The investigation process of the CBI is totally independent. It has become a fashion for everybody in this country to say that the CBI is under the control of the ruling party. When we are in Opposition,we say that too. But if the CBI is under the control of the government,how can so many ministers,MPs and bureaucrats be in jail today? If the CBI was under the control of the government,why is it that in the Supreme Court and in the High Court,people say they want a CBI inquiry into their cases? Why do state governments refer cases to the CBI? On the separate directorate of prosecution,we are working towards it. There should be separate wing of prosecution.

Shyamlal Yadav: The government exempted the CBI from the RTI Act. Are there any other organisations you will exempt from RTI?

The CBI is not only investigating cases within the country but outside too. They receive a lot of confidential and secret information. In the interests of the country,that secrecy has to be maintained. Therefore,the investigation part of the CBI has been exempted from RTI. I have said in Parliament that at present the government is not thinking of exemption for any other organisation.

*Vedanth S Govi (Delhi Public School,Rohini): The Privileges Committee has suggested MPs be allowed to use the red beacon on their cars. What do you think of this suggestion?

Under the present protocol,MPs are not entitled to a beacon light. The government is unlikely to agree to this because it will become another irritant for the people.

Amitabh Sinha: Almost the entire debate on the Lokpal,especially in the Rajya Sabha,was dedicated to the perceived attack on federalism. With the states asserting themselves and even arm-twisting the Centre if they have the numbers,how do you see this phenomenon?

There are certain state governments that blame the central government for everything. State governments announce freebies at the time of elections and then they want money from the Centre. The Government of India has its norms. The Planning Commission fixes the norms. The state governments want special packages for announcing schemes like free rice. If the central government doesnt give the money,they blame the central government for ignoring the state government’s request. Several central government schemes are being implemented in the states. There are 17 centrally sponsored schemes,about 14 flagship programmes right from NREGA to national health schemes75 per cent of the budget money for these schemes is being given by the central government.

Amitabh Sinha: How much longer rope are you willing to give to the TMC considering they have been blocking most of your recent major initiatives?

They are our ally. In a coalition government,it happens. In Parliament,we have to manage alliance parties to get support for various bills. In a coalition government,if you adjust with them,you rule,otherwise you dont rule.

**Isha Rastogi (EXIMS): You said the states are opposing the Lokayukta. How important is it to have a Lokayukta?

Lokayuktas already exist in 18 states. With a few exceptions,they are in line with whatever the chief minister says. In Gujarat,the chief minister did not allow the Lokayukta to be formed for the last eight years. That is why we want a uniform legislation in all the states,with all the provisions.

Vandita Mishra: Youve just mentioned how difficult it is to run a coalition. UPA-I had a coordination mechanism,especially with the Left. Why is it that UPA-II,though a coalition,functions like a single-party government? Why is there no coordination committee in UPA-II?

We have a core committee within our party headed by the UPA chairperson Sonia Gandhi,with PM,Pranab Mukherjee,P Chidambaram,and AK Antony and a few others. They decide on various issues and they consult our allies. On major issues,they consult the allies and take their consent before implementing a policy. The time has come to think of having a coordination committee with the allies.

*Madhav Jalan (Delhi Public School,Rohini): What is the significance of having minority reservations in the Lokpal committee?

It is a question of recognition. Unless and until these people are represented there,they will be ignored. Why not utilise their services for the Lokpal? There are eminent people in these communities too. It was a conscious decision to include the minorities.

Pranab Dhal Samanta: On the Kudankulam nuclear plant issue,the PM said that we will have a settlement soon. How far have the negotiations progressed?

Nuclear energy production is very cheap and the safety measures which have been put in the Kudankulam project is 3-plus generation technology. The PM constituted an expert group,the Tamil Nadu government also constituted a groupthey are talking to each other about the safety part. The people who are agitating are creating a misinformation campaign. But we are countering them,giving the facts and figures. The state government is also cooperating with us. The state government will have to give the fishermen a certain package as in corporate social responsibility. The PM has agreed. Very shortly we will be opening the project.

Transcribed by Jayant Sriram and Naveed Iqbal
** Student of Express Institute of Media Studies