The RSS doesn’t run the BJP, the BJP runs the BJP

•Vandita Mishra: Don’t you see this as a larger process of dialogue between the two major political parties?

Madan Das Devi: Why not? We can’t grow further apart than this.

•Coomi Kapoor: Do you think the all-party committee can help resolve the impasse in Jammu?

Madan Das Devi: It is the responsibility of all to look after the security of Jammu & Kashmir. We have to try and solve this problem amicably.

•J P Yadav: The PM has said that the way the issue is developing in Jammu, it will only help India’s enemies.

Madan Das Devi: The situation has been created by the enemies of India — the Hurriyat Conference with the support of people across the border. The PDP has joined hands with them to bring down the Government.

•J P Yadav: The RSS and the BJP have been accused of stoking the anger of the people of Jammu.

Madan Das Devi: Not just the RSS or the BJP but everyone, irrespective of party, has joined the agitation. So it’s not a one party issue.

•Manish Chibber: Do you think this would strengthen the demand for a separate state for Jammu? All the people leading this agitation were part of RSS-backed organisations.

Madan Das Devi: Discrimination against Jammu is always on the minds of the people there. There are demands that they want to be fulfilled.

•D K Singh: How similar or different is this Amarnath movement from the Ram temple movement?

Madan Das Devi: The sentiment is common. In the case of Jammu, land was given to the Shri Amarnath Shrine Board on lease for some structures to be created for the yatris. The Ram temple is a very old agony of this nation. It was destroyed and it should be revived as Ram Janambhoomi. The fact is that the public is aroused by such issues. That’s the commonality between the two.

•D K Singh: Are you ready to take this movement forward and beyond Jammu?

Madan Das Devi: It is a natural outcome, a reaction to an action.

•D K Singh: You said the Hurriyat Conference is India’s enemy. In hindsight, do you think the NDA government shouldn’t have engaged in a dialogue with the Hurriyat?

Madan Das Devi: That question requires a detailed answer. But we can have a dialogue with anyone. It’s a process of solving problems and exerting pressure. We are in dialogue with China but nothing comes out of it.

•Ruchika Talwar: The RSS used to have a strong presence and influence in Punjab till a few decades ago. People used to attend shakhas in the morning. The practice is no longer prevalent. Has the Punjabi sympathiser moved away from the RSS?

Madan Das Devi: If that was true why does Punjab have the maximum number of MLAs who support us? Indications of weakening support for us are nil. Going to shakhas is another matter. Shakha is selfless work for which there should be a higher motivation, not the motivation of winning elections. The RSS shakhas make people aware of their duty towards their work and the nation. That’s going on everywhere. The work of shakhas has been shifted to rural areas now.

•Ruchika Talwar: Most of your sympathisers were from influential Hindu families of Punjab. They weren’t economically backward.

Madan Das Devi: That was earlier. Now you’ll find shakhas in slums or backwards areas. In cities, we don’t have any. Instead, we have weekly meetings or cyber shakhas. In Bangalore, for instance, there are 40 cyber shakhas with 800 members. It’s a different way of functioning.

•Unni Rajen Shanker: How does the BJP-RSS relationship work?

Madan Das Devi: Our swayam sewaks have taken to different walks of life. Some swayam sewaks were asked for by other organisations. Every organisation is autonomous. They are not supposed to depend on the RSS for anything — finances or decision-making. So that is how we function. We have cordial relations with the BJP. The RSS is not a party. It is not in government or in power. Vajpayee, Advani, Ashok Singhal are swayam sewaks and they say so openly. They have a moral authority. Sometimes the BJP consults the RSS, but the RSS doesn’t run the BJP. The BJP runs the BJP. They call us and we attend their meeting sometimes. We understand it’s a nationalist organisation and serves the nation’s causes.

•Coomi Kapoor: The perception is that in key decisions, the RSS’ view counts in the BJP. Two examples: Advani’s stepping down after the Jinnah controversy and the appointment of the finance minister in Vajpayee’s cabinet. In Advani’s case, he said in his book that ‘they’ wanted him to step down. This is a reference to the RSS.

Madan Das Devi: There are some exceptions, that’s all I can say.

•Suman K Jha: There is a perception that the dynamic equilibrium between the Sangh and the BJP has changed. Earlier, there was one RSS point person for the BJP. In the last one year, the RSS has deputed three leaders to interact with the BJP: you, Bhaiyaji Joshi and Suresh Soni. Is there a fundamental shift in Sangh-BJP relations?

Madan Das Devi: We are contact persons; we aren’t in charge of day-to-day activities, or what should happen in the party. That’s not our business. We are there for them if they need us, to help them or advise them, or to update their information. But there isn’t any shift.

•Vandita Mishra: One significant way in which the RSS is seen to help the BJP is with elections. But during Narendra Modi’s campaign in Gujarat’s Assembly elections, the RSS didn’t turn up for Modi — yet he won. Will you tell us about that campaign?

Madan Das Devi: That’s not true. Normally what happens happened in Gujarat too. But let’s not go into details.

•Manoj Chibber: Last year I met K S Sudarshan. He said the RSS can always back a new political party. Is that idea still open?

Madan Das Devi: Theoretically, yes.

•D K Singh: Every time you ask the BJP why they couldn’t implement your agenda on the Ram temple or uniform civil code, they say it was because of the compulsions of coalition politics. Is coalition politics a hindrance?

Madan Das Devi: They have to find a common minimum point for coalition politics. But issues like uniform civil code, aren’t party issues. They are national issues. However, when a party is in government, it can’t break the law or undermine the court. This is their limitation and they have to work within this limit. We understand this difficulty.

•D K Singh: Are you saying coalition politics is not an excuse for not being able to implement your agenda?

Madan Das Devi: It is an excuse. If you form a coalition, you must have a common minimum programme and act accordingly.

•Unni Rajen Shanker: On issues like economic policy or the nuclear deal, are you in agreement with the BJP?

Madan Das Devi: Yes, but we don’t always speak the same language. As for the nuclear deal, entering into any agreement with another country is a matter for the Government, but it shouldn’t create any hurdle in our freedom to conduct nuclear tests. That’s the only rider we have. On economic policy, we say that it’s a complicated issue. We shouldn’t bow down to WTO against our interests. There are other matters like import duty and opening our doors to insurance companies that need to be debated.

•Suman K Jha: There is a feeling that the RSS is still wedded to the idea of Akhand Bharat. When Vajpayee went to Pakistan, he visited Minar-e-Pakistan. Advani by his intervention on Jinnah tried to signal to Pakistan that we are reconciled to the idea of Pakistan. The RSS is still not reconciled to the existence of Pakistan.

Madan Das Devi: Our Sanghsanchalak (leader) has said Akhand Bharat need not be achieved by war only. That’s not the idea. There can be an understanding, a friendly country of the same origin. If a country is divided, a country can unite as well. We have one geo-cultural and social identity and the same family systems and values. We always give the example of Israel. For 1,800 years, Israelis lived outside Israel. If they could keep their desire of living in Israel alive so long, why can’t we? What are 50-60 years?

•Suman K Jha: Is this the reason why the RSS has Pakistan within the map of India?

Madan Das Devi: It is a cultural map of India, not political.

•D K Singh: Why is it that in every communal riot, the name of the RSS comes up for supporting Hindus?

Madan Das Devi: That’s because it’s a Hindu organisation. But no one from the RSS has ever been arrested or blamed. No court has ever implicated the RSS in any communal incident. But when Hindus are beaten up, the RSS is offended.

•D K Singh: What’s your reaction to the lifting of the ban on SIMI?

Madan Das Devi: At this juncture, lifting the ban is an encouragement to the terrorists.

•Tridivesh Singh Maini: The name of your organisation is RSS. People are comfortable with that name as it stands for a composite Indian culture. But why can’t we live with the fact that every Indian can have a distinct identity yet be an Indian?

Madan Das Devi: Multi-culture, multi-god and tolerance are qualities of India because India is Hindu. We are secular because we are Hindus. The reason we are so liberal is because we are Hindus. India was divided on the basis of religion. But India remained secular. Who has kept it secular? We Indians — Hindus.

•Tridivesh Singh Maini: What about the uniform civil code?

Madan Das Devi: Everybody agreed on this, including the Communists till the Shah Bano case. After that case, everybody had a different political stand on it. Marriage laws should be one for all.

•Ruchika Talwar: How can the RSS advocate the idea of Akhand Bharat and force everyone to think he’s a Hindu? I can be an Indian and still not be a Hindu.

Madan Das Devi: India, Bhartiya and Hindu — all have the same meaning. We have the liberty to worship by choice. That’s Indian culture.

•Cithara Paul: The RSS has always had an uneasy relationship with the Left especially in states like Kerala.

Madan Das Devi: Not always. We’ve been together in the government twice — in 1967 and 1989. We don’t believe in a one-party system. We believe in a multi-party system. When there is political intolerance, trouble arises. For us, everyone is our own. Nobody is an enemy.

•Ravish Tiwari: Does Mayawati and the BSP, which is also a cadre-based party, pose a substantial obstacle to your Hindu unity?

Madan Das Devi: Every political party which wants to come to power has to take all sections of society with it. Once Mayawati stood only for the Dalits or the Bahujan Samaj. Now, she stands for Sarvajan Samaj or the all-inclusive. Politics can start from anywhere but you have to embrace all sections of society.

•Ravish Tiwari: Do you accept that the RSS way of Sarvajan Samaj has failed, the BJP has failed and the Mayawati way has succeeded?

Madan Das Devi: Politics is a see-saw.

•Ravish Tiwari: You have been decimated in UP.

Madan Das Devi: This happens in politics. The game is first won and then lost.

•Shekhar Gupta: But do you agree that, for you, this game hasn’t been successful?

Madan Das Devi: There are many factors in this game. One is the leader. Then the need of the people. In UP, people wanted to take Mulayam Singh head on. The alternative mass leader is Mayawati. People wanted a stronger alternative, which she could provide.

•Shekhar Gupta: It is said that the BJP and RSS openly discriminate against the backwards classes.

Madan Das Devi: We are going deep into addressing social inequality. But this is not easy. We have started many programmes. For example, girls living in slums were worshipped on Vijaya Dashami. In Chennai, 400 sadhus of different sects were taken to slums inhabited by Dalits and offered food.

•Shekhar Gupta: The Gowdas of Karnataka have challenged the Brahmin’s monopoly on priesthood. Do you approve of this?

Madan Das Devi: In Tamil Nadu, we have started to train non-Brahmins who want to learn Hindu rites.

•Suman Jha: People feel that Baba Ramdev, Shri Shri Ravi Shankar are replacing the space occupied by the RSS earlier.

Madan Das Devi: They are our supporters. All those who are good people sympathise with us.

•Ruchika Talwar: And those who don’t, aren’t good people?

Madan Das Devi: Those who aren’t with us today, will be with us tomorrow.

Transcribed by Ruchika Talwar