Sudhir Mungantiwar at Idea Exchange: ‘We will raise Ladki Bahin grant to Rs 2,100. If we don’t, we will be criticised across the nation’

Usually, Lok Sabha results are analysed according to seats. We analysed it through votes. We (BJP and allies, including Shiv Sena and Ajit Pawar’s Nationalist Congress Party) got 2,48,50,000 votes while the Mahavikas Aghadi (MVA, an alliance of Congress, Shiv Sena-Uddhav Balasaheb Thackeray and Sharad Pawar’s Nationalist Congress Party and others) got 2.5 crore votes. There was a difference of 1.5 lakh votes. In Mumbai, we got 26 lakh votes and the MVA got 24 lakh votes but it was not distributed properly. Once it came to our notice, we formulated several schemes and ensured they reached the beneficiaries.

We implemented several schemes like the Ladki Bahin Yojana, free electricity up to 7.5 horsepower for farmers, the Mukhyamantri Teerth Darshan Yojana for the elderly and the Ladla Bhai Yojana for 10 lakh youth. I have been an MLA for the last 30 years and have seen the speed with which each government works. Often, the announcements we make in the Budget aren’t implemented until December, or even until the next Budget. But the speciality of the current Chief Minister Eknath Shinde and the two deputy Chief Ministers, Devendra Fadnavis (BJP) and Ajit Pawar, was that they got to work immediately after the election results. After the Lok Sabha debacle, the BJP cadres were determined to win, just like Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj would be determined and win every battle. The Ladki Bahin Yojana, under which money was transferred directly into the accounts of 2.42 crore women and girls, worked for us and they acknowledged that by giving us their mandate.

There was total commitment and focus from the BJP’s central leadership with Home Minister Amit Shah sending Environment Minister Bhupender Yadav, Railway Minister Ashwini Vaishnaw and BJP’s national general secretary Shiv Prakash. Then there was Fadnavis himself on the ground.

Our aim was never to just win the elections; we wanted to win people’s hearts. In the coming days, we have to work with that perspective. When I met Fadnavis last night (Thursday), we didn’t discuss who would be the CM. We talked about how Maharashtra, as the economic engine of the country, could contribute to its financial growth. We have to work for development over the next five years and will succeed.

Shubhangi Khapre: The BJP focussed a lot on consolidating the OBC vote. How much did that affect this election?

The Marathas also voted for us. Maratha MLA Babanrao Lonikar won from Partur. So it isn’t true that only a certain caste group supported us. Even Muslims voted for us in some seats. We lost the Lok Sabha election because we didn’t look at our vote distribution. We took care of that this time.

Shubhangi Khapre: Did the campaign slogans like ‘Batenge toh katenge’ or ‘Ek hain toh safe hain’ have an impact?
I don’t think it influenced the voter much because this slogan has been in use since the time of Chanakya. It was used by Shivaji Maharaj, Maharana Pratap, Rani Laxmibai and even Mahatma Gandhi. This was a slogan to guide and take us forward. We might have got some votes because of it but saying that it helped us win isn’t true.

ON THE CONGRESS PITCH | They (the Congress) know the politics of winning and not the politics of development. Therefore, it was obvious they would lose this election. Their narrative that quotas would be discontinued didn’t work

Shubhangi Khapre: Did it help in Hindu vote consolidation?

I don’t think so. Everyone — Muslims and Sikhs — voted for us. Where did the 2.48 crore Lok Sabha votes come from?

Sandeep Singh: There has been a 15 per cent gap in the vote share vis-a-vis the MVA, which is quite abnormal. What do you attribute that to?

I would say the arrogance of the Opposition. It destroys a person. What was the difference between Lord Ram and Ravan? Ravan was arrogant about his knowledge. Lord Ram knew what that could do. After the Lok Sabha elections, the Congress was filled with hubris. Its narrative that reservations would be discontinued — Congress leader Rahul Gandhi himself said so in the US —simply did not work.

Besides, who is responsible for inequality in this country? The Congress governed this country for 55 years. According to the 2011 census, 6.5 crore people were living without a house. Between 1960 and 2014, national highways in Maharashtra grew from 2,000 km to 4,500 km, a paltry increase of 2,500 km. In 10 years, the national highways spanned 19,000 km, an increase of 15,000 km. They know the politics of winning and not the politics of development. It was obvious they would lose this election.

Sandeep Singh: How did Rahul Gandhi’s campaign play out?

There is a limit to lying. Despite being such a senior leader, you don’t know that the Constitution cannot be changed by anyone. Therefore, even BR Ambedkar once said, “The Congress is a burning house. Whomsoever will enter it will be burnt.” The Congress was jealous of Ambedkar, they didn’t even give him a Bharat Ratna.

ON POWER-SHARING | When Amit Shahji heads a meeting, he plays the role of judge and is not there as a party leader. He will hear everyone out and decide. I don’t think that after a decision is taken, anyone will remain adamant

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Alok Deshpande: Do you feel Eknath Shinde’s image and work played a key role in your victory?

It’s a group effort. The Chief Minister (CM) presides, the Cabinet decides. You cannot say that one person helped us win.

Sandeep Singh: Whose brainchild was the Ladki Bahin Yojana?

It was the idea of the CM and the deputy CMs. But yes, I would give a lot of credit to the CM for taking it up in various Cabinet meetings and we supported it. Earlier, people were saying that the money (disbursed by the scheme) would come from the taxpayer’s money. I said income tax goes to the Government of India. In fact, I think it is the money of the common people as they pay GST on every item and so it is the common man’s money going back to them. In 2017, as the finance minister, I implemented the Seventh Pay Commission and gave Rs 86,000 crore to 18,000 people. No one had a problem with that then.

Shubhangi Khapre: Even with a landslide victory, why is it taking so long to form a government?

In the last 20 years, this is going to be the first government that is going to be formed so quickly. In 2004, it took 15 days. In 2009, it took 14 days. In 2014, it was formed in 11 days. In 2019, Uddhav Thackeray was sworn in after over a month of the election results being declared. We will form a government within 11 days.

Shubhangi Khapre: The Mahayuti unity seems to be fading after the elections. It seems Shinde is miffed and Ajit Pawar is unhappy.

There’s no unhappiness. The day Shinde became the CM, he knew he had to go one day. Who is permanent?

Zeeshan Shaikh: With the BJP getting an overwhelming vote share in the Assembly election, how comfortable are you sharing power with allies?

When you form a friendship, you don’t weigh it in terms of profit and loss. We worked together, so we should share power together. Just because one is forming the government because it is capable doesn’t mean one should leave friends. Had we got fewer seats (than the other alliances), how would we have felt if our friends left us? No party will progress with such a thinking. We didn’t think like that even in Bihar. When you decide (to be in an alliance), words have some worth.

Zeeshan Shaikh: Would the BJP give up the CM position?

The question doesn’t arise because Shinde said he would abide by whatever decision the Mahayuti and the BJP takes. He has told Prime Minister Narendra Modi and Amit Shah that he would not be a hindrance in government formation.

ON BJP ALIGNING WITH UDDHAV THACKERAY’S SENA | Will we ever partner with Uddhav Thackeray? Ask me this question in the next life. He abused Modi and Shah. It is not possible

Mohamed Thaver: Can you ensure that you will not make any changes to the Ladki Bahin Scheme or discontinue it once you come to power?

The only criterion that might change is related to income tax payers. So far, several tax payers, too, have received the payouts but we will go through the data now and remove those not eligible from the list of beneficiaries. Then, there was very little time to evaluate and we could not scrutinise all the application forms. The Rs 2.5 lakh (per annum) criteria (of household income) will remain.

Sandeep Singh: Will you keep your promise of raising the scheme’s limit from Rs 1,500 to Rs 2,100 for every woman? One of your alliance partners is saying this was Shindeji’s promise.

It will happen 100 per cent. If we don’t raise the amount from Rs 1,500 to Rs 2,100, then it will be shown as an example across the country in all elections that we reneged on our pledge. I will write a letter to the CM. We have to stand true to our words and as the chairman of the Maharashtra manifesto committee, I won’t let our manifesto (Sankalp Patra) promises be diluted.

Maharashtra pays Rs 59,000 crore as interest and we have the strength to give Rs 2,100 per head. I don’t think any of my alliance partners are saying this. Yes, the cut-off date from when the increased amount can be disbursed will be discussed, whether to increase it in January or July. We implemented the scheme on Bhai Dooj last time, so we may increase it during Bhai Dooj next year.

Vijay Kumar Yadav: How much will the burden increase from the present Rs 45,000 crore after the scheme amount is increased to Rs 2,100?

It will be less than the interest we pay. It will be less than the Seventh Pay Commission amount that we have to pay every year. Why do people ask these questions when it comes to giving money to women? Nobody questioned when Videocon was given land worth Rs 3,000 crore at Rs 30 crore. The Constitution directs us to come up with enabling policies.

Vijay Kumar Yadav: Modi has spoken a lot against distributing rewdis (freebies). Isn’t this contrary to that?

In that case, why would Modiji give Rs 6,000 to farmers? His argument against freebies is for giving them to a different category of people, he’s not against bettering the life of the underprivileged. But why should there be free electricity for everyone? The PM has at least 170 targetted schemes related to gas, toilets, Mudra Yojana, Ayushman Bharat Yojana, Start-up India, PM Vishwakaran Yojana for people who need it. This way we can all evolve and grow together, and close the rich-poor gap. Tell me, is there any other leader who is working with a goal in mind for 2047? Their manifestoes are bogus and make no sense.

Shubhangi Khapre: Why is there a delay in calling the legislative party meeting in BJP?

Unlike our allies, who have their leaders here, we are a large national party and have to discuss internally. Also, the Parliament session is going on. The decision will be taken two days before the swearing-in. Modiji and Amit Shahji will decide, I don’t see any obstacles.

Shubhangi Khapre: The BJP and Sena had an equal number of ministers in the last Cabinet. The BJP had 105 MLAs then. What will happen this time?

There’s a difference this time. We are all brothers and nobody is big or small. All our three leaders will serve the people and work together. The allocation will happen based on numbers.

Shubhangi Khapre: Shinde seems to be okay with giving up the CM’s post but he is insisting on the Home ministry.

When Amit Shahji heads a meeting, he plays the role of a judge and is not there as a party leader. He will hear everyone out and decide. I don’t think anyone will remain adamant after a decision is taken. It’s okay to make a request but it’s not okay to remain adamant. All the three leaders love and respect Shahji. People do make requests and Shahji will decide based on logic. It is untrue that Shinde is insisting on the Home Ministry.

Alok Deshpande: In his speech before the election, Shah had said, “In 2029, there will be 100 per cent BJP.” What does that mean?

In 1995, we had an alliance government with the Shiv Sena. We had 61 seats and they had 71. The then BJP state unit chief, Pandurang Fundkar, had then set a goalpost of “Shat pratishat BJP.” Did anyone ask Sena’s Balasaheb Thackeray or Manohar Joshi about that slogan? It is the same effort now. Hundred per cent BJP means that we reach every village, town and remote area for last mile governance and development. Now even RSS has given a call for reaching out to remote areas.

Mohamed Thaver: Several leaders like Nitesh Rane have had more than 20 FIRs against them. Do you personally approve of the kind of statements he made during the campaign? What about his comments on a community?

If Sanjay Raut (Shiv Sena-Uddhav Balasaheb Thackeray) makes provocative statements, what should be done? If they are abusing you and you don’t reply, people interpret that differently today.

As for the community-specific reference you mention, he did that once because the community made some statements against him. It is not like the entire party is commenting on that issue. Besides, are the speeches by Akbaruddin Owaisi not inflammatory or the Congress’ demeaning of Veer Savarkar not provocative? Every action has a reaction in the heat of the moment but you can’t say that the party endorses such statements. The other side also needs to change its language. I understand if the errant is a small-time worker. But when big leaders call our leaders with inappropriate nicknames, it is intolerable.

Alok Deshpande: Will you ever partner with Uddhav Thackeray?

Ask me this question in the next life. He abused Modi and Shah. It is not possible.

Sandeep Singh: How do you view Sharad Pawar and Uddhav Thackeray now? Have you finished competing with them?

No, I don’t see it that way. If you accept every victory with arrogance, then you will definitely lose. If you accept each loss with humility, then you will definitely win. We will definitely be respectful. After all, Pawar (and Thackeray) have also provided some service. I remember meeting Thackeray when he was CM. He acted with humility. I don’t have personal grudges against him.