Smriti Irani at Idea Exchange: ‘When you come into government, you serve not only people who voted for you, but also people who didn’t’

It’s fascinating when silence speaks as loud as actions. It is extremely fascinating when people look at the battle axe and wonder, has she turned into a new sword which thinly slices? One of the presumptions about me is that I am my office or I am my political or organisational disposition. I’ve had the good fortune of being in the media and in politics for close to two-and-a-half decades. It’s very rare for somebody who is 48 to create a relevance and an impact in two fields.

Post June 4, life is exactly how it was before. The only difference may be of visibility on certain platforms but those are also strategic decisions. In the last 10 years, I would have barely had five days of leave.

Liz Mathew: You’ve been a vociferous critic of Rahul Gandhi and his style of politics but we have seen a slight difference in your statements before and after the 2024 results. Do you see him as a changed man?

I think he was deserving of that critique, especially as a policymaker who had a place in the Cabinet. I was well-versed with the facts on which I spoke. Additionally, I believe that when you are anointed as a spokesperson, either for a government policy matter or when you’re presented to represent your party’s view in press conferences, you do speak voluminously about what the party or the government feels on a particular issue.

With regard to how Rahul Gandhi’s politics has changed, I think that the effect of his politics has been seen in the fact that Narendra Modi is back in office. I have opined on his strategies that have changed. But when I say that he is trying to leverage friction in society and communities by pitting one caste against the other, anybody who is a political novice will see that as a compliment. I think I became very verbose about my analysis about him, taking a few phrases out of a dictionary, but I don’t think I complimented him in any way.

BJP leader Smriti Irani. (Express photo by Renuka Puri)

Ritu Sarin: One of the statements you made after the election was that losing Amethi was an emotive and ideological issue for you. If you could elaborate on that. Also, did the candidate take you by surprise?

I knew who the candidate was going to be because if they had the gumption to fight on their own, they would have made that announcement. The very fact that Rahul and Priyanka did not announce themselves as candidates was not only a reflection of their caution but also an understanding that they know that they are not poised to win from Amethi. For me, Amethi is an emotive issue because it’s an ideological battleground. I was assigned Amethi in 2014 by the party to fight the election. If you look at Amethi’s background, you will see that I’m the first non-Congress MP to complete five years. Amethi has never had a female other than from the Gandhi family win.

On working with the Opposition | When I passed the Juvenile Justice Act Amendment, it was unanimously passed. Any Bill that I’ve passed in 10 years as a parliamentarian, there has been unanimity on it

Jatin Anand: You were born and raised in Delhi. It is being speculated that you will play a role politically in Delhi. Will we see you politically active?

Who says I’m politically inactive? Electoral politics is a decision of the leadership. What is a great blessing for me is that I am one of BJP’s most politically well-travelled candidates. I was an MP from Gujarat twice. I was an MP from Uttar Pradesh. I have been the BJP Yuva Morcha vice-president in Maharashtra. I was appointed to the national executive when Atal Bihari Vajpayee was PM. I worked as national secretary when Rajnathji was president. Then Nitinji came to the fore, I became the national president of the women’s wing. Every time there’s an election in Gujarat, Delhi, Uttar Pradesh, Bengal, my name somehow surfaces everywhere. I’m supposedly a committed so-called ‘political entity’ that can be leveraged for any speculation.

Shahid Pervez: In July, Rahul Gandhi made a statement urging Congress workers to refrain from using derogatory language towards you.

Do you think there should be more civility in our public discourse, which is increasingly becoming very bitter?

I think Mr Gandhi was cognisant of the fact that there is an overwhelming national response to my work and contribution to Amethi. I had done much that the combined force of the family had not done in the so-called family bastion. Earlier such contributions did not have national or public recognition. Because media now is more infused with multiple means of communication, people across the country knew. It did not possibly behove the family well when I was being slathered with abuse. I also believe if everybody was of the belief that attacks on me were not to be sexualised, then they would not have promoted all the men who flung sexual slurs at me. So, I think it was more to show the grandeur of civility on behalf of the family than a belief that discourse has to be civil. But I do not disagree that we all can agree to disagree.

On Rahul Gandhi | When I say he’s trying to leverage friction in society and communities by pitting one caste against the other, anybody who is a political novice will see that as a compliment… I don’t think I complimented him

Liz Mathew: I’ve seen political leaders across the aisles. They used to have a very good personal rapport, including Atal Bihari Vajpayee, who had good friends in the other parties. This, to a considerable extent, is missing now. What could be the reason?

I think it is a combination of efforts from both sides. As they say in Hindi, taali do haathon se bajti hai. So, Vajpayee was in your presumption ‘very civil’ but then he had those kinds of responses from the other side of the aisle. I have, in my body of work with the BJP, also confronted people from the Opposition who are considered great political personalities — Mulayam Singh Yadavji, Lalu Prasad, Sharad Pawar. I have stood against these men for a good two-and-a- half decades, but we had enough space. Mulayam Singhji was older than me. I would touch his feet and he would reciprocate accordingly. I don’t think I ever had a heated exchange with Lalu Prasad Yadav. Sharad Pawarji and I never had. When Prime Minister Modi was given a goodbye from the Gujarat Assembly, everybody spoke. Those from the Congress, who had daggers drawn, spoke and wished him well when he transitioned to becoming PM.

BJP leader Smriti Irani (right) with Liz Mathew, Deputy Editor, The Indian Express. (Express photo: Renuka Puri)

Liz Mathew: One thing I’ve heard from the Opposition MPs is that whenever they approached you when you were a Minister, you were always receptive. Do you have any friends in the Opposition?

What is essential to understand is that when you come to a position of policy-making, when you come into government, you serve not only people who voted for you, but also people who didn’t vote for you. So when an MP approaches me with a legitimate challenge, I am constitutionally dutybound to provide them a solution. When I became Minister for Gender (WCD), West Bengal and Odisha were not participating in the Poshan Abhiyaan that the PM had professed. I made a phone call to Naveen babu and Mamataji and they were happy to participate. So, it is not as though we create a participative democratic framework only when an MP wants something done. When I passed the Juvenile Justice Act Amendment, it was unanimously passed. Any Bill I’ve passed in 10 years as a parliamentarian, there has been unanimity on it.

Nikhila Henry: Gender discourse, especially feminism, recognises social inequalities, including caste, religion and so on. What is your idea of women’s emancipation?

I think the very Indian way of life is to let everybody have their own viewpoints and the best of those viewpoints to convert for a larger good. So what feminism may mean to you may not have the same meaning in my vocabulary. For instance, the very fact that we say female emancipation means that there is a presumption that women are waiting to be rescued. I take umbrage at that. When they say female empowerment, it’s as though we are waiting for a handout. I think we’ll successfully serve our gender better, when — and what the PM has I think magnificently tried to do and deliver — we don’t presume that you are going to rescue women, understand that women can lead development and change.

BJP leader Smriti Irani

Nikhila Henry: So you do recognise inequalities in society other than that of gender?

If everything was equal, would politicians be in office?

Ritika Chopra: The Indian Institutes of Management (Amendment) Bill, 2023, went through multiple changes. When you were the Education Minister, the Bill had a strong element of autonomy, but there was also accountability. Eventually, when the Bill was made an Act, there was absolute autonomy and zero government control. The Act was later amended and an accountability element was brought in. Was that sort of a told-you-so moment for you?

There are many told-you-so moments that I’ve seen. But my issue is, wherever there’s public money at play, accountability has to be assured. People like me have come into politics not to be a part of the rigmarole. I’ve oscillated from a very successful media career and consciously given it up when I came into the Parliament because I wanted to ensure accountability as a policymaker. When we look at institutions that have had a legacy in our country, many of those institutions have had a longer life as compared to those who bear the name of that institution but have just been given birth to. Those who are at the nascent stage have different needs as compared to legacy institutions.

On delimitation in Women’s Reservation bill | When the PM presented the Cabinet note, he was very particular that this cannot get challenged in a court of law… we left no constitutional provision out

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Liz Mathew: If you look at the BJP now, there are not many youngsters who are in the Parliament or the ministries. It is something that the BJP’s current leadership is criticised for.

How do you measure the success of a political organisation? You measure it from the perception of how much the organisation has grown in terms of numbers. The BJP is the single-largest political organisation not only in the country but the world. The second measure of a political organisation is do you come to power at the Centre to affect change? Yes, the BJP has come to power for the third time in a row.

I’ve served the BJP on two segments — one is the youth and the other is gender. I don’t see a gap. Information about such people may not be as succinctly put in the national capital as you may like. Asha Lakra, the national secretary, began with me as a Mahila Morcha leader. You don’t possibly see her getting headlined everywhere in national newspapers, but that does not take away her contributions and growth in the party. Vijaya Rahatkar used to be the mayor of Chhatrapati Sambhajinagar. Today, she is the Chairperson of National Commission for Women. I have seen the journey of the CM of Chhattisgarh, Vishnu Deo Sai, Finance Minister of Chhattisgarh Om Prakash Choudhary, Chief Minister of Rajasthan Bhajan Lal Sharma.

Liz Mathew: Do you think the Women’s Reservation Bill could have been without the delimitation?

You have to reorganise constituencies to make space. You have to be well-read constitutionally on the issue. That space can only be created after the census, after you know how to reorganise constituencies. It’s the constitutional way of getting it done. Otherwise, the Supreme Court would throw it out. So I wanted to ensure that when the PM had presented that well-thought-out Cabinet note, he was very particular that this cannot get challenged in a court of law and get thrown out. The only way to ensure that it is administered to the full measure of that decision is to ensure that you leave no constitutional provision out for its successful implementation.

Manoj CG: How has the BJP’s relationship with the minorities evolved? During elections, we heard references to mangalsutra, ghuspaithiya.

Why is the issue of illegal immigration or infiltration a religious issue? It’s a security issue. How many Indians will say, ‘let people enter our borders illegally? Let them usurp the rights, the land, the livelihoods of Indian citizens?’ There’s not an Indian in this room who will support that. Does that make you the BJP? Does that make you anti-minority? It doesn’t. So, I’ve always wondered that when there is a conversation about illegal immigration, infiltration, why is it anti-religion or anti-minority? It’s internal security, socially, geographically, or for that matter, financially, an issue for every Indian to come together on.

Manoj CG: The BJP is often seen as a Hindutva party. The agenda that you had — Ram Temple, Article 370 or Uniform Civil Code.

How is Article 370 a religious issue? It’s a constitutional issue. Wouldn’t you want every state in your country to be under one flag in one Constitution? Insofar as Ram Mandir goes, the BJP had an overwhelming majority in 2014-2019. Did it force the Mandir? No, it did not. We waited for the courts to reach a conclusion. Was the Mandir built out of taxpayers’ money? No, it was not. But at the same time, why is it that me being a Hindu or Hindus being a part of my political identity or my political organisation such a slur? Article 370 is not a religious issue. One Nation, One Election is not a religious issue. Article 370 and its revocation, did it impact Jammu, Kashmir, Ladakh? Yes. How is it religious? People said, we will never have a democratically elected government in J&K. Do we? Yes.

Shalini Langer: In 2002, you came to be known nationally when you said you would fast unto death if Modi did not resign as CM over the 2002 Gujarat riots. What has changed since then, and have you changed or has he?

I think it’s a compliment of Modi’s leadership skills and his organisational skills that I was all of 27 then and he had a sit-down conversation with me. He said, look at the facts, there’s a Supreme Court monitored investigation underway. There was a different government post-2004 at the Centre, which was baying for his blood. He said look at the facts and then judge me, and he was right. The fact that I became part of his core team, the fact that I was part of his Cabinet twice over. The fact that in 2014, when he came to Amethi, and somebody in the Gandhi ecosystem said, “Who is she?” and he said, “She is my little sister”. I think that is a manifestation not only of his largesse as a human being, but also his maturity as a political organiser. He knew that as a 27-year-old, I would take decisions based on facts. Irrespective of the UPA being in power for 10 years and leveraging every instrument of state they had against him, he came out without a blemish.

Vandita Mishra: Don’t you think it is a challenge for a government of a diverse country to reach out to one section that feels it is not represented? The BJP does not have a single Muslim MP. The PM in this very campaign spoke of the mangalsutra. That was an emotive kind of an appeal to the Hindus to say that your mangalsutra will be taken away and given to another community.

Do you think that Muslims did not vote for the BJP? They did indeed, otherwise we wouldn’t be where we are today. Second, when you say that the PM spoke about the property rights of a particular community being taken away, wasn’t that in response to the Congress saying that once they are in power, they will take everybody’s lands and redistribute it as they please? The Congress took that position. That was said not only by Sam Pitroda. Today, in Karnataka, Siddaramaiah is saying you cannot usurp the lands of farmers under the guise of waqf. Is Siddaramaiah anti-Muslim? No, he’s not. It’s happening right under the Congress’s nose. If we look at Jharkhand, the fact is that illegal immigrants and infiltrators are usurping lands of tribals. So, if the PM speaks from the experience of what the Opposition is positioning itself to be, how is the PM disavowed? Give me one example where there is an opportunity to service the needs of the community, has the PM defaulted.