‘Unless Dharam Singh is given full scope to run this tough govt, it’ll be very difficult. There should not be any remote control’

• That’s why you chose this venue, instead of the Vidhan Soudha or one of the great avenues of Bangalore city?

I have always been branded a pro-farmer man. I’m not against other sectors, but the condition of the farming sector is very bad. Our honourable PM has himself admitted, at the National Development Council meeting, that farmers are suffering terribly, that the agricultural sector is one of the worst sectors.

• So what do you prefer to be described as—a former prime minister or a humble farmer, as you once called yourself?

I am a humble farmer and I’m proud to say it. I know the conditions of the farming sector because I am myself a contributor. Until I became PWD minister, I used to till the land—I would work the land even when I was Opposition leader and an MLA.

• But, do you remember how a gentleman who became your cabinet colleague—then Home Minister, Indrajit Gupta—once described you on the floor of the House as a kulak?

When Dr Manmohan Singh introduced economic reforms in 1991, he told the House that subsidies to the farming sector would be removed in a phased programme over three years. That was a condition set by the IMF and the World Bank. At that time, the country was facing a severe economic crisis—the Chandrashekhar government had had to mortgage about 30 tonnes of gold. But on that day, when Dr Singh talked about phasing out farming subsidies, I opposed him bitterly—in my four decades of parliamentary life, I have never behaved as I did on that day—I sat on dharna in the well.

• In Parliament?

In Parliament—the one day in all my life. I just wanted to tell the nation that the farming sector is going to be drastically affected by these economic reforms.

• So what did Indrajit Gupta say—how did he get into the picture? It was a famous confrontation.

Yes, it’s on record, it’s in the minutes of the proceedings. He said the farmers are the exploiters, he used words like ‘kulak’. I was pained, I retaliated. West Bengal has been ruled by the Left for over 23 years. When land reforms were implemented in Karnataka—with all seriousness, there was no hesitation…

• Devraj Urs did that.

Devraj Urs worked from the concept that the ownership of the land should go to its tiller, the tenant. I don’t know whether land reforms were implemented seriously or not in North India, some states have problems even today. But in Maharashtra, Karnataka, Kerala when land reforms were introduced, they were enforced. And this is one of the basis of the deterioration of the farming sector.

• So you think land reforms have done us more harm than benefit?

The greatest harm is because of fragmentation—over 30 or 40 years, the sons and grandsons of a family divide up the land and land holdings become very small. Today, 80 per cent of land holdings are about 1.2 hectares each.

• But the Common Minimum Programme speaks very strongly of the need for comprehensive land reforms. Are you not in agreement with that?

Without knowing the adverse effect of land reforms—which were implemented with all seriousness after the Congress passed the resolution for the land reforms.

• It’s one of the excesses of emergency?

(smiles) An excess, or simply impractical. On the one hand, the population is now growing fast. But the land cannot grow—land size will be limited. We also use land for industrial purposes, communications, school buildings, irrigation works…

• Constructing highways, railways, ports…

In all of this, the cultivable land has been reduced. And with the farmers subdividing land within the family itself, there is now no economic viability in a land holding.

• But Deve Gowda ji, the Left takes great pride in carrying out land reforms in West Bengal. In fact, they say that’s why rural Bengal is shining—India may not be shining, but rural Bengal is shining.

I am sorry to say this, and I say it with pain and agony, but the true picture is something very different.

• So, what you’re saying is that wherever land reforms have been implemented, things have become worse?

Even in states like Bihar and other places where land reforms have not been properly implemented, according to my information, there too the farmers’ condition is very bad. I’ll tell you why. Today, with the cost of cultivation, the cost of inputs, the farming sector is not as attractive as compared to the service or the manufacturing sector.

• Is that because the sale and marketing of agricultural products has not been reformed?

That is exactly the reason. Not only sale—preservation, packaging…

• So do you ever pick up the phone and advise Sharad Pawar, one farmer to another? I will not go so far as to say one kulak to another

Sharad Pawar has taken some interest so far as the agricultural sector is concerned, but that has to be supported by his other cabinet colleagues. Otherwise, he can’t do much.

• And that is not happening?

Where is the support for him? When I was re-elected to Parliament in the Kanakpura by-election, I went with a group of farmers to Delhi. At that time, more than 8,500 farmers had committed suicide in the whole country—whether Kerala, Punjab, Karnataka or Andhra. I told the then PM, Atal Bihari Vajpayee ji, that whatever the mistakes that have happened in Gujarat, people will forget. You have to try to bail out the farmers.

• But he did not listen to you?

No.

• It was seen that you opposed the Bangalore International Airport over the question of land, and you are now opposed, over the same issue, to the Bangalore-Mysore Expressway, which you yourself had cleared. It is said that your son is perhaps involved—maybe he’s eyeing profits in the real estate business.

I have four sons and two daughters and two sons-in-law. If any of my family members has taken one acre of land in any of these projects, or any other area, I am prepared to take any punishment. That is point one. As for Bangalore’s International Airport, we have cleared it, we have signed the MOU. I demitted the office in 1997, on April 11. This project was cleared in 2004 when the elections were declared. I don’t want to attribute motives, but why did the so-called Class I CM need seven years?

• He is not your favourite chief minister?

I don’t want to call anyone my favourite or not my favourite.

• In election campaigns, you call him ‘Dirty Krishna’.

(smiles) I don’t want to use any unparliamentary language. Why did it take seven years? From 1997 to 2004. Now we have cleared it. Four hundred acres of land had been estimated in excess—that was taken back.

• Are you now happy with the project?

Yes.

• And there will be no impediment now?

No, why should there be? This 400 acres would have cost more than 1,200 crores. The property belongs to the government, not to me.

• So the project now has your blessing?

Yes. My home minister, Mr Sindhia, he is now in charge of Industries and Infrastructure; my finance minister is the Deputy CM—30 crores tax exemption was reduced…

• And what happens with the Mysore express highway, the infrastructure corridor?

If the company is prepared to execute the project…

• This is Baba Kalyani’s company?

Yes, yes. There is no hindrance for the road project.

• But they want to execute the project. They say they are being stopped by the government.

The project was cleared in 1995. There might have been a delay in the environmental clearance—there are so many clearances by various agencies in the state government and at the Centre. But in 2003, when Krishna was the CM, he supported the company. Government land was mortgaged to ICICI bank and the bank gave Rs 150 crores. On that day, he promised the work would start. Who has objected? Then the matter went to court—nobody objected. How has this man been obstructed by anybody? People have objected when he wanted to make real estate deals. I hand him the responsibility—as a citizen of this state, minus the real estate deals, if you want to start the work, it will start tomorrow.

• But, Deve Gowda ji, they say that minus the real estate, the project is not remunerative.

How can it be. If Vajpayee ji has spent more than 60,000 crores to create a highway corridor through the whole country—the Golden Quadrilateral…

• No, but there’s a different formula. Are you then willing to give them more in terms, say, of the period of their toll collection?

One hundred per cent. It has been agreed, it has been calculated, the financial aspect, everything.

• So how much more will you give them?

Thirty years was agreed on. Ten years he has wasted in this real estate business, this is the biggest joke. Even today, if he has incurred losses in greasing the administrative machinery—I’ll put it very bluntly…

• Obviously Mr Krishna’s.

No, I don’t want to take any names.

• If he has lost money, it is in greasing people’s palms?

Yes. Not for any other purpose.

• What Enron called ‘education’?

Yes. If he has lost money, the coalition government is ready to give him at least another five years for toll collection. Nobody objects.

• But, basically, he has to give up this additional land?

Naturally. It is poor farmers’ land.

• But, sir, if the city were to take a vote, they wouldn’t say it is poor farmers’ land. They would say it is Mr Gowda and his family’s land—they have taken control of it and they will make money off it tomorrow.

If anybody proves that my family has taken one acre of land, I am prepared to have my neck cut.

• You once used an expression about Mr Sitaram Kesri. You said he is an old man in a hurry. People now say that of Mr Gowda sometimes—you’re not as old as Mr Kesri, but sometimes you sound like an angry old man in a hurry. And the haste is to pull down this government and have a fresh election.

No, no. In the past year, I have never, ever thought on those lines. A coalition era has started in the country, not only in Karnataka. In either the central government or various state governments, if they lose one party they are gone. But they must know how to run a coalition—that is one of the main things. I also ran a coalition for ten months with 13 parties…

• With the largest party outside the government.

Absolutely correct. There was not even a single instance where any person in the government, not a single cabinet minister, expressed a difference of opinion outside. If there were any doubts, we would discuss them and clear them within the Cabinet.

• So, does the Congress here know how to run a coalition?

I don’t know. It is for them to decide.

• But what is your view?

My view is if the Congress were sincere about running a coalition government, all these things would not have happened. Why should they allow two colleagues in Bihar to fight? They could have taken some steps in the initial stage itself.

• There’s one thing on which Sonia Gandhi and Manmohan Singh would like a tutorial from you: how to handle the Left. You had the Left in your cabinet and yet you dismantled the administered pricing mechanism in petroleum, you set up the Disinvestment Commission. How did you handle the Left—what should the Congress do and what are they doing wrong?

Even the Left parties are not going to disagree over the question of disinvestment. The only point is that profit-making public sector undertakings should not be unreasonably disinvested.

• Unreasonably—you are putting a qualification?

Yes. Where public-sector undertakings are consistently loss-making, there is no point in keeping them going. This was the only objective in creating the Disinvestment Commission—we agreed to constitute it only after it was discussed thoroughly in the Cabinet. But it wasn’t meant to dispose of all public sector undertakings. And even in disposing—I must be very frank—how have they disposed of these hotels? Arun Shourie is, if I am correct, a very honest man…

• He is. He’s my guru in my business.

I’m not bothered about whether he belongs to the BJP or to X party or Y party. He is an honest man—I’m not bothered whether the Congress likes it or not. But what happened to the hotels? I can give you any number of such instances. This is where things went wrong. Another point is that nobody will come to take only loss-making public undertakings—you must also give them some profit-making ones. That is one of the theories which has been advanced by Mr Atal Bihari Vajpayee in the House. But at the same time, there is no need to disinvest in all public-sector undertakings.

• So it should be done slowly?

Not only that—you must also try to protect the labourers. Even in West Bengal, how many jute mills have been closed? What is the fate of those workers?

• Do you sometimes find hypocrisy in the Left’s approach to this?

I don’t want to use the word ‘hypocrisy’. I have been to West Bengal, I addressed the jute mill workers. One of them actually jumped to the podium and said he had seven members in his family. They each get one aalu (potato) in the daytime for lunch and one each again for dinner. We’re all human beings—what do we say ‘by the people, for the people’ for? Sixty-nine jute mills have been closed in West Bengal.

• So the pot can’t call the kettle black?

Let my friends realise what exactly the rural people…

• Friends in the Left, you mean?

Yes. They are my friends. I have a coalition in West Bengal and in Kerala as well. My only point is that, today, we have spent 12 years implementing economic reforms. We have to view exactly what are the advantages and disadvantages that the country is facing.

• I am very tempted to ask you one question. What happened between you and Mr Kesri? Why did you pull the plug? I know Mr Kesri’s side of the story, I don’t know yours.

I must be very plain and frank…

• As you always are.

Even now, I don’t hold want to blame Kesri. I used the phrase ‘old man in a hurry’, but in what context? Some of our old friends tried to persuade him that they were going to make him the prime minister. Our friends—I don’t want to name them—they went and visited him.

• Mr Surjeet was obviously not among them?

No. None of the Left parties.

• The usual suspects. Mr Hegde, I know…

They planned it. Poor man, after all, he was such an old Congressman. If an opportunity like this came, why would he let it go? On 9 April, he came to know that all these people had deceived him.

• His story was that you were trying to use the CBI to frame him in a case.

Impossible. Never. I don’t want to mention it, but Mr Rajesh Pilot actually submitted a memorandum to me on the (Dr Surinder) Tanwar murder case. I said to him: I am sorry, Mr Pilot, you are fighting for the gaddi of the Congress presidentship—there’s Sharad Pawar on one side and Rajesh Pilot on the other and Sitaram Kesri on a third.

• Do you think this would have improved if Sonia Gandhi had been in control then?

I don’t want to comment on this.

• What’s your view on her, now that you deal with her at a different level?

It is very difficult if there are divergent views among the coalition partners, if they are pulling in different directions—that’s my honest opinion.

• Do you have any advice for the Left?

I am not a member of the UPA…

• But you are a former prime minister, you are a national leader—do you have advice as an outsider?

See, the issue today is that there are several burning problems. Some of these, nobody would ever oppose tackling: unemployment, poverty, population growth, providing basic necessities to voiceless people. What is required today is to forget one’s politics. Forget your political benefit, what is the gain or loss for your party.

• So are you keeping the same consideration in mind while dealing with your Karnataka coalition?

One hundred per cent.

• And you are not going to pull down this government this year or next?

No, not unless the Congress itself wants to go.

• Does the Congress have the temperament to run a coalition?

The Congress has to learn a lesson from the past. Why was the Chandrashekhar government removed on the word of two constables?

• Well, you were removed on a suspicion, Mr Gujral was removed on half a suspicion.

That’s why I said the Congress must realise its past mistakes and now, at least, rise to the occasion and take all the secular parties together to run the country.

• Before we wind up, what is your message to Mr Dharam Singh?

Unless the Congress high command gives him full strength—I have said this to Sonia Gandhi,I have no hesitations—unless Mr Dharam Singh is given full scope to run this tough government, it will be very difficult. There should not be any remote control.

• But people say that you have the remote control.

No. Why does the governor of Maharashtra come four times a month to Karnataka?

• You won’t be calling him ‘Dirty Krishna’—you’ll call him ‘Frequent Flyer Krishna’ now.

The President of India gave guidelines on how governors should behave in states. Why is he here four times every month? Is it to destabilise the government?

• So, are you saying that he has the remote control, not you?

I can speak for my own party, but I can’t take responsibility for the Congress. Ultimately, Sonia Gandhi should use her power as the national president of the party to tell everybody to behave a bit better, including the governor of Maharashtra.