‘The Left parties have committed suicide’

•A leader has to think big and think of the future ahead. Anything can happen in politics. But you, Mulayam Singh Yadav and Lalu together, nobody could have imagined three months back.

Its just that whatever happened in the Parliament recently. It’s a disgrace for the country and it’s a deed that brought disgrace to the Parliament also. For now, the whole matter is before the Speaker to be examined. But above all, is the national interest. After that comes the interest of the parties and then comes the individual’s interest. But if an individual’s interest becomes more important than the party’s interest and party’s interest becomes more important than the national interest, than that country goes to hell. Whatever happened here, national interest was never considered. And if something happens that goes against the interest of the country, then the individuals whether Lalu, Paswan or Mulyam, are not considered.

•Is it just this or is there something more to it?

Lets start with UP, since the beginning we have held the view that there is no difference between Mayawati and BJP. Even now both are talking. Left is also caught between them. Or we can accept that all the parties except Left that are with them and that call themselves secular despite the fact that these parties have stayed with the BJP or NDA.

•Even you have stayed with BJP?

Yes we have. So we can accept that it doesn’t really matter whether it is JDS or TDP, everyone has been with them. But how did Left fall into this trap.

•Left fell into Mayawati’s trap?

Left fell into Mayawati’s trap or sometimes individuals who take poison when they are lose their temper. They have a personal issue with the Prime Minister and they wanted to topple the government. And then they adopted the policy that an enemy’s enemy is my friend.

•So you are saying that the Left’s moving closer to Mayawati and proclaiming her as the future prime minister is akin to taking poison after losing temper?

Yes and sometimes when somebody jumps from the seventh storey of a building, there may be a revolution or it may be suicide. In this case they have committed suicide.

•Did you ever try to make them understand?

What can we make them understand? The person who was the closest to us, we used to consider him our guardian. We used to talk to Harkishen Singh Surjeetji freely. Since the time he was the caretaker of the VP Singh government, we were close to him. We never expected from Bardhanji that he would proclaim Mayawati as the Prime Minister on the strength of 9 MPs. Whoever did this is not a friend of Mayawati, they are her enemies. They have actually brought her down. If you raise the temperature of something upto 100 degrees and then suddenly bring it down to 20. Its value doesn’t really increase. Everybody knows there is an NDA and UPA. They are the two pillars today. They will remain even tomorrow. Both have the support of allies. Mulayam Singh Yadav parted from other parties with 35 MPs and Mayawati got 17 MPs. Mulayam Singh Yadav with 35 MPs doesn’t dream of being a prime minister. How can these people who formed the third front, UNPA think that they can make the prime minister? Now Karat has given a different statement, Brinda Karat has also said something else. Now they are giving explanations. Bardhanji is now saying that he was asked by the press if she should be the prime minister and he said that isn’t a problem.

•But he has said that she is qualified to be the prime minister.

The whole country knows how qualified she is. She cant speak five lines.

•You are talking about Mayawati.

Yes am talking about her. She wrote Mayawati advocate for many days but now she doesn’t call herself so. She thinks she doesn’t need it now since she is the Chief Minister.

• So you don’t think she is qualified to be the prime minister?

No she is not. It happens at times that media plays up something. They are saying its social engineering. What is it? In Bihar, what per cent of vote Nitish Kumar has? He became the chief minister because people were angry with Lalu Yadav. In Punjab, people were angry with Amarinder Singh, so Badal got a chance. Mayawati became the Chief Minister because people were angry with Mulayam. It was a negative vote. All parties were attacking him and were asking for Mulayam’s removal. She got that advantage.

•Congress also made a mistake at that time?

No congress was going by its strategy. Congress thought that no party will get majority and it would hold the key. But what I would really like to add here is that Congress always made a mistake in understanding Mayawati. Since the beginning, they gave her a lot of importance. Initially Mulayam Singh Yadav gave undue importance to her. Then it was the BJP. Congress didn’t know that a horse and grass can’t be friends.

•If horse and grass become friends, then what will it eat?

Now they are understanding. When somebody talks about kalapanthi in the parliament, people think Mayawati and her supporters create a ruckus. When Rahul Gandhiji stays in a dalit’s shanty even in extreme weather conditions and has food there. Then Mayawati has a stomachache.

•Tell me something, Ram Vilasji. At this point of time, politics is such that you are the first politician who has said something against Mayawati. Nobody either doesn’t want to say anything against Mayawati or doesn’t dare to. Everybody says off the record that if I say something than it will be said that ‘dalit ki beti ko kuch keh diya’.

So if she is a dalit’s daughter, than am I not a dalit’s son.

•This is what I am saying.

Look Ram Vilas Paswan has no charges against him. But she has charges against her that she is ‘daulat ki beti hain’. Now a dalit whose status is such that she pays income tax equivalent to Ambani’s or pays the same tax as Ambani’s employees, then that person is no longer a dalit. ‘dalit ki beti’ is being used like a slogan. On one side is dalit ki beti, on other is swaran ka raj and then there is bahujan samaj. Keep on sloganeering. Thaku baniya Brahmin choor baki sab hain Dsphur. Tilak tarazu aur talwar, inko maro joota char. And then change the slogan and say haathi nahi ganesh hain brahma Vishnu Mahesh hain. Brahmin shaankh bajayega haathi badta jayega. She adopts a double standard. She talks differently when she meets dalits, muslims or uppercast keeping in view their considerations. She went to Meerut where muslims had not voted for her last time. There she said muslims are terrorists. Even we have stayed in socialist parties. They were Lohaities. There was Lohai, Madhur Miya, mama Balasar, S M Joshi. They were Brahmins. We used to give slogans that proclaimed equality and the need to uplift the lower castes. It said that power is with the English-speaking upper castes and this situation needs to be remedied. These people were from upper caste and there was no contradiction in their statement. But in this case, they call bad names to upper caste and then change stance. What makes me angry is that the Left parties who used to talk about a classless society till yesterday and who were against caste system, they changed their stance abruptly.

•But why did they do so? They are intelligent.

They don’t realise that if they push Mayawati or Ram Vilas Paswan, then most of the dalit votes are in Punjab where there is not a single BSP MLA. After that there are votes in West Bengal. When the muslims and the dalits in Bengal start understanding this and adopt caste politics, then Left parties wont be able to stay. Dalits have the least reservation in West Bengal.

•Did you talk about this to the Left parties. You do know their leaders. Did you tell them that you are making a mistake.

I said it to my friend Raja. I told him that earlier you used to talk against Mayawati. Now you are quiet.

•What did he say?

What would he say, he is in the communist party. He is in the Kerala party.

•But Ram Vilas ji, lets go back a bit. You said they did it because of personal animosity, they drank poison or jumped from the seventh storey of a building on losing temper. But can you explain what was this personal animosity? You were on the inside, you would know.

Earlier they used to be against the nuclear deal. They felt it was against national interest, then they went ahead, formed a committee. I would like to thank the opposition that they made sure there was a discussion on the issue. And because of the discussion the common man of this country…

•So your doubts were removed?

Yes. Its true because we have been among those in the socialist party movement. At that time, Air India was Indian Airlines, and we opposed the privatization of the aviation industry and coming of private airlines in India along with the Left. When globalisation happened even then we opposed it. The world is entering the 21st century, people are making houses on the moon and you don’t allow people to light lamps in their shanties. I am most surprised at the BJP. It is the BJP that has suffered the most. It is the BJP that could have easily taken the credit by saying that the initiative for the nuclear deal was taken by them. But now having lost its cool, it is harming its own interests (it is also drinking the poison).

•Neither did I find God nor my beloved (Na khuda na mila na misaley sanam). What is this personal animosity?

Its just that if there is some news in the media. Even if it is wrong they try and justify it. Similarly, the prime minister said its in national interest. Then media wrote that those opposing the deal are not thinking of national interest. After that they made it into a personal agenda that if the government moves further, we would withdraw. If I had been in their place and I would withdraw, then I wouldn’t go with the BJP forces.

•Now you are saying something serious. You earlier said that they were with Mayawati and now you are saying that they are with the BJP.

Yes with BJP. They voted together. That day Omar Abdullah said in his speech. I am among those people who were a minister in the government during Gujrat riots and I had resigned. I told Atalji that I used to listen to a song, “don’t lie we have to go to god. There are no horses and no elephants. We have to go by foot.” Why are you doing this? Why are you spoiling your image because of Narendra Modi? Concentrate on the development work being done by the government. He didn’t agree and we withdrew support.

•I heard you said that you are constructing a great road.

Yes and that he traveled to Lahore by bus, which was great. We were influenced by it. He had said that RSS is not allowing us to move. We thought we should support this man because we also had Bihar on our agenda. But what I want to say is that when we were in NDA, Left used to hate even the sight of our face. Left used to say that we hate even the shadow of BJP, then why did they vote with the BJP.

•Did you ever say this to any senior leader of the Left?

Now there is no one you can say this to.

•Nobody worth talking too? There are big leaders.

No. They are big leaders. We have never interacted much with Karat. We used to talk to Bardhanji at times. We had given two seats to them during Bihar elections, one each to CPI and CPM. For months, Bardhanji used to go around with us. Now if we meet, I will tell him. But when a car is in gear then whats the use of telling them. Only if the car is in neutral, you can hope for change.

•Their car was in gear. Now how do you think this will affect the future. Earlier, you had an alliance with the Left in Bihar.

We wont have an alliance with the Left in Bihar. Neither will we have an alliance with the BJP. But party has the freedom to contest elections independently. In Delhi, we along with Lalu and Mulayam Singh Yadav are together but in Bihar our decisions would be based on party’s interests.

•But would you have an alliance with the congress and Lalu?

We don’t have any issues with the Congress. Even when I was an MLA, we had an alliance with the Congress. We accept Sonia Gandhi as a leader. We have no issues with the Congress. As far as Laluji and RJD are concerned, the rank and file of our party is wary of an alliance with them due to our previous experience in Lok Sabha and Assembly elections.

•In a meeting recently you had at Patliputra you did not speak in a cordial manner to Lalu and then you served him food.

Its not my habit to speak offensively about someone. But its true that people in Bihar have become distanced from Lalu. This is also true of Nitish Kumar. People are looking for a third option, which is Ram Vilas Paswan and Lok Janshakti Party. If Mayawati is the leader of the dalits, she should try to enter Bihar. Once she went for a meeting in Gandhi maidan, which is a sacred place she went by helicopter. Even the prime minister or the president go the airport and then travel to Gandhi Maidan which is 5 minutes from the airport. She did this to attract the crowd. But still there weren’t many people.

•But people say that now she is being projected as the future prime minister, dalit vote in Bihar will shift to her.

It wont happen in Bihar. Her votes in Uttar Pradesh will be cut. There is Parsi vote in Uttar Pradesh which is 50 %, then there is khateek, valmiki vote.

•Her votes will decrease?

She asks for votes on caste. But there are Ambedkarites among them. She is getting her own statues constructed after demolishing Ambedkar’s. There is the philosophy of Periyar. She has banned the book on periyar and his photos. There are Ambedkarites even among those belonging to the same caste as her. There are many castes in scheduled tribes. In every state among schedule castes, there is Republican party and others, even in the south. Even after she became the CM, she got just 1.75 per cent in Gujrat, 2 per cent in Himachal Pradesh. Where has she reached?

•BJP thinks that Mayawati will take a chunk of Congress vote, which will benefit them?

Earlier in the hope of toppling the government, they were hoisting their flag. But in the speech that day, Advaniji didn’t look convincing and his speech didn’t hold weight. We have been listening to him since so long.

•His case was weak because its tough o speak against the nuclear deal.

I said initially that a leader’s job is to lead the country. He could have said what was right. He could have said that the deal was in national interest and will fight the government on the issue of inflation. His status would have risen had he said that nuclear deal is in national interest. He would have asked the government to face the no-confidence motion on the issue of price rise.

•Tell me something. Yours is a small party which gives it the advantage of having flexibility. You have been with the NDA, UPA and third front. You are like the DMK. Is it a possibility that if NDA forms the government tomorrow, you would support them?

No. I have said initially that I made the biggest mistake of my life. I had harmed my interests and had drunk poison after losing my temper over Lalu Yadav. Then I had joined the NDA. But in 1998, Atal Bihari Vajpayee’s government was falling because of one vote. Yashwant Sinha, Uma Bharti and others came to my place.

•You had given a brilliant speech at that time. You had said that 40 people came with Babar. You didn’t allow others to enter the temple.

Yes and I also said that when Babar came Ibrahim Lodhi was ruling the country. Before that was the Khijli dynasty, Tughlaq dynasty, Slave dynasty and Ghauri dynasty. How many people came with those 1,500? And how many muslims do we have today in India, Pakistan and Bangladesh taken together? They are 50 crore. They are not Babar’s children. The biggest reason for this is that till you don’t clean the Ganges, it will continue to breed more insects. Islam is a sacred religion. Islam said everybody is equal before god. If you are not allowed to enter the temples, you can come to the mosques. You eat at the same dastarkhan with others. This was the reason people converted to Islam.

•The reason was caste system.

Yes. Because of caste system, Sikhism and Christanity came into being. There are 29 per cent dalits in Sikhism. There wont be any Brahmins there. You would find adivasi dalits among christans. Many people converted to Buddhism due to Ambedkar. There were 10 lakh people. All this because of caste discrimination.

•So you will never go with the NDA?

No. In the beginning, we had said that if JD(U), Nitish Kumar’s party separates from the BJP than we might go with them. But this is not a possibility. They wont leave.

•But you would never go with the BJP?

No.

•And third front?

Third front doesn’t have an existence. Leave aside the Left parties. Initially they were saying Mayawati would be the prime minister. Today, they said that the biggest party to emerge as the winner amongst them will get the prime minister’s seat. Big parties means Left will keep itself aside. Only Mayawati is left. She wont get more than 17 seats. That leaves 2 seats for Deve Gowda, 2 for Chautala and two for TDP which means 6 seats. That would be about 50. NDA and UPA will be separate. How will they make the prime minister?

•You have worked with different prime ministers- VP Singh, Deve Gowda, Vajpayee, Gujral and Dr. Manmohan Singh. Tell me something about each one of them in a line.

VP Singh believed in an ideology and never compromised on any issue related to the dalits. He made a mistake because he was in opposition to the Congress. When it came to the issue of supporting the government, BJP was there to suuport. But even then he never compromised on any issue. I also worked with Chaudhary Charan Singh. His agenda was that of farmers.

•Ajit Singh has a agenda different to him?

Yes but I wont comment on Ajit Singh’s agenda.

•Because you want to come back?

No its that. We have worked together for long, so it wont be right to comment. About Deve Gowda, I can say that he never considered the bureaucracy while taking any decision. Whatever he wanted to decide, he did. Gujral sahib used to take everyone along. I never understood what Atalji used to do. He never used to speak. He would keep on laughing and smiling. Samajhne wale samajh gya kya samaj gye kuch pta nahin.

• But he ran the government?

That’s because he had the majority. Such people can run the government for a longer period of time. Those who don’t say a thing. Narsimha Rao never used to say a thing and he ran the government for 5 years. And Dr Manmohan Singh, the freedom ministers have got to work honestly under him has given them more confidence. The freedom he gave to his ministers to work has never been given by any prime minister before. But if you do something wrong the discussion takes place in front of everybody in the Cabinet.

•Does he have leadership quality? Somebody calls him ‘nikamma pradhanmantri’ somebody calls him ‘george bush ka ghulam’.

The people who called him so were living in misconception. When Indira Gandhi became PM she was called goonghi gudia. Infact our leaders called her so.

•Lohiaji said so.

Yes. Aur what did that googhi gudia turn out to be. BJP called her durga, kali. People who spoke against Manmohan Singh came to know in one go what he is. Earlier when Left withdrew even we thought the government should resign. But it was the PM who said we would do this national interest and took the stand, whether government stays or not. He convinced everyone many times how this is in interest of the country.

•So you are saying PM has come into his own?

His standing has been strengthened. People’s perception of him as a leader has also been strengthen 10 times.

•But its also true that you also remained in doubt for a long time because of this?

Yes it sometimes is difficult to judge a few things. Initially we were also prejudiced against the US. It was said it’s a deal with America. But it’s a deal with 45 countries including Russia, France and others.

•Your muslim vote is also there which is valuable. Do you feel you may lose it?

People who make these statements doubt the nationality of the muslims, as if muslims are anti-indian and anti-development.

•Pandhey sahib said this.

He was wrong. No muslim obstructs the path of development. In the last moments of the debate, it was the muslim leaders who spoke. Also as things get clarified they would get a better picture. India is not an Iraq or Iran.

•Or even a banana republic…

….Yes. We are the biggest democracy. They think that we will get scared if America bats an eyelid. Nobody is scared here.

•If we are not scared. We should do what we believe is right?

Yes we should do it. And the government is doing it. And these people, will face defeat in the next election. And we will come to know how many votes will the people having 60 votes now have.

•60 votes. You are talking about left?

No I am, talking about everybody- left, right and everybody.

•But 60 is the left?

I would just say a quote, “ab hawayein hi karengi in diyon ka phasla; jis diye mein dam hoga, who diya reh jayega.” This will happen in the elections. And the left, right, BJP, Mayawati would be nowhere. UPA will come back with a thumping majority.

•BJP people got trapped this time.

What was the trouble with them. They became conservative bacause the Left. They don’t think about other’s benefit. But they were the ones who wanted to get close to America.

•You have spoken like a 100 per cent politician. I can tell you whatever happens, elections or no elections you would be on the winning side and you will be a friend.

Thank you very much.