‘Muslims don’t provoke. They’re scared. This scared Indian Muslim is a big threat to the unity of our country’

But those from other states would come …
Members of other states — from the Lok Sabha as well as the Rajya Sabha — would meet me and discuss issues related to their states. They would ask me for land in cantonment areas … things like that. I also wanted to get a station made in Mainpuri but that did not work out.
The third reason is the bureaucracy in UP. IAS officers from UP who went to the Central Secretariat never bothered about UP. They never made any proposal for the state or advised successive UP governments on how to get more Central aid.
These are the three main reasons. Moreover, people tried to make political gain and this led to unabated corruption and cheating. To maintain their rule, they helped the corrupt. This situation gradually unfolded … If a CM or minister is cheating, then how can one stop the bureaucrats from doing the same. The Samajwadi believes that corruption begins at the top and it descends.

Are you trying to say that instead of working for the state’s advantage, the fact that UP had so many PMs all ended up damaging the state’s fortunes?
Not entirely. UP found a place in history, but no prime minister, even when he wanted to, did too much for the state mainly out of fear of the charge of being partisan.
For example, the condition of the farmers of UP has been far worse than those of Punjab and Andhra. Of course, we are happy that a lot of aid has been provided to farmers of Punjab, Andhra and even Haryana. But why has UP been ignored?
There have been floods and droughts, we got complaints that under such conditions the rabi crop would suffer but the Central government has still not taken up issues related to floods and water scarcity. And what did they take up? Ayodhya.
It made no sense. We were so desperate for immediate relief and aid during the floods, but all they could see was Ayodhya. In fact, I appealed to them on humanitarian grounds for help and told them that special consideration should be made as the people were suffering. Some 15 per cent of houses in the cities were also flooded. Everyone was suffering, I appealed so many times …

We’ll come to Ayodhya later but there is a saying that UP’s politics is UP’s ruin. Politics here is so divided on issues such as caste and religion that with the three dominant parties — the BJP, SP and BSP — it seems there is no need for performance. Each has its own supporters, and people who will vote for them …A BSP supporter will vote for the BSP irrespective of the government’s performance, a core BJP supporter will vote for the BJP if the temple issue is important to him irrespective of performance. And your party will get votes on caste basis and due to its allegiance to the Muslim vote. When politics gets so divided, then why should the politician work and how will he work?
There’s one opinion you need to change. It’s not as if the SP will get votes come what may. The BSP can claim votes from its support group (Dalits). The Congress even now uses Nehru’s name to get votes, but the SP faces a major problem. We cannot just invoke Dr Lohia or Jaiprakash Narayan or Acharyaji and run the party … because Samajwad is an ideology and it is this ideology that get us the votes. The result is that our government now has the support of entire UP.

But throughout the country there is an impression that Mulayam Singh Yadav is a leader for Muslims… How do you see your contribution in giving Muslims power or gaining their loyalty? Has the country benefited or suffered?
If you ask me, it has helped Muslims a lot. Think of it this way, if Muslims were fanatical about their religion and if I am a Hindu, then why are they accepting a Hindu leader?

Are you a good Hindu?
I believe in Hanuman. He is Ram’s devotee and I am Ram’s devotee’s devotee. What else can make me a bigger Hindu? … But I cannot do politics in the name of my religion.

Do you go to temple and pray?
Sometimes … I have even been up to Vaishno Devi. I used to go to Vasi very often but haven’t for a while.

Where is that?
Bainvasi, in Barjapur … There was a Hanuman temple … I go to a lot of temples. I will even go to Dhanbi mela now.

So you are not the sort of socialist or Marxist who is removed from religion?
If you separate religion and politics, society will become very harsh. Even kings used to have a court pandit to ensure the ruler didn’t go down the wrong path. Politics and religion go together — but to ask for votes in the name of religion is wrong.

So you cannot entirely separate politics and religion?
No, there is a lot of faith in me, the SP’s political/ideological faith for the poor, farmers, backward and women to give them special attention, that is intact.

People say Mulayam Singh says he is against politics in the name of religion. But he himself fights Hindutva forces by indulging in politics in the name of Muslims … by scaring Muslims with consequences, that if you are not with me, there won’t be security.
I have never said that in any of my speeches. I told Muslims that when I protected the masjid, I didn’t do you a favour. I did it for the unity of the country. If Muslims started believing that their places of worship were not safe, that no one would help them, they could have gone on the path of extremism.
I am telling you now, even I didn’t know then, in 1993, when our party came to power … before that the Muslims in the country, in UP, had made up their mind, to go against it …

To take to terrorism?
To fight back … to fight back at any cost.

This was the anger in 1991-1992?
After the demolition of the masjid, the youth was so angry. But when we formed the government, our Hindu brothers and Muslim brothers worked together and saved the country. They didn’t give us the full details. They came to me, Hazrat Ali Mian, who said ‘‘Mulayam Singh, I can only say this that you have saved the country’s unity.’’
Then I came to know I had been made defence minister. I was told that a man close to him was in my staff. He told me that Hazrat Sahib has mentioned you in one of his books, look at it in your free time. I asked him if he had written anything about me in his book and why he never told me. His reply was that if I did not write about you in my book, the Lord above would never forgive me because you have served your country.

Are you saying that by securing Muslim votes, you have served the country?
Yes, I have served my country.

How?
By gaining their trust. We didn’t get all, but the majority of the votes. Even now we get a good number of votes. Indian masses may be illiterate but they are intelligent.

Did you know that Muslims had got hold of weapons after the Babri Masjid’s demolition?
They thought they would need weapons. But when our government was formed, those who had the weapons threw them away. But it did strike them to go and get weapons. Had they not had faith, they would have picked up weapons. That is one thing we did.
The other was that Pakistan wants Indian Muslims to be victimised … The Vishwa Hindu Parishad or BJP or the main body, the RSS. If we talk of these three, they want another 2,900 masjids demolished. And that is what Pakistan wants.

2900 … you mean what VHP said … that there are more …
Yes, they said they will capture them as well and will first ask for three.

After Ayodhya, Kashi and Mathura?
Ayodhya, Kashi, Mathura and Pakistan wants this stir to continue. The more the injustices inflicted on Muslims, the more their places of worship are threatened, the more Pakistan will benefit. And Pakistan will get stronger on the international front.
We are working to keep India’s unity. We did not defend the masjid for the sake of votes nor will we do it now. If we were not to adhere by the rulings of the Supreme Court or high court, then there would be anarchy. We have only obeyed the rulings of the courts. It was our responsibility to maintain the status quo in Ayodhya.

But in Indian politics today, no one understands the Muslim mind. For the first time, in terrorist attacks in India outside Kashmir, like in Gujarat and Mumbai, we have seen the involvement of Indian Muslims. What is the reason and solution for this?
I’ll give you an example of the kind of feeling that is surfacing in India. We also need to introspect. There are some fanatical Muslims, I agree, but even some Hindus are fanatical. When there is an India-Pakistan match, don’t Hindus also fire bullets? Don’t they burst crackers? All to provoke them.

So Hindus are provoking the Muslims?
Yes. It is true that the Muslims don’t provoke. They are scared. This scared Indian Muslim is a big threat to the unity of our country. Because of the threat from Pakistan that we have at our borders, our Hindu brothers should think. We need to keep the unity of the country intact.
Our country’s history and culture is one of unity. For example, take Kashmir. We can say if the people of Kashmir have faith in the Government in Delhi and India, then the people of Kashmir will put an end to this terrorism. But I want to say that in Kashmir, where 90 per cent of the population is Muslim, why did they choose to stay in India post-Independence?

In Kashmir?
Yes, in Kashmir. The terrorists’ attempts to create a divide between Kashmiri Brahmins and Muslim population is a Pakistani conspiracy.

That there should be conflict between the Hindus and Muslims? That the Kashmiri Muslims should attack the Hindus and make them flee?
That was Pakistan’s conspiracy and Pakistan was successful in that. But tell me one incident where Kashmiri Muslims have captured the house of a Kashmiri Brahmin. The Sikhs are still living there. They may be 1,000 or 2,000 but they are still there. They haven’t left as yet.
Now what have Kashmiris got in return? Nothing, whether it is do with development, unemployment, railways, communications, airports etc. In the past 10 years, or even before that until 1989-90, how many Kashmiri officials were there in the departments of education, banking or any other administrative section? All of them were from outside the state, not Kashmiris.

You understand the Muslim psyche. Mainstream politics in India does not mix with minorities much. Indian Muslims are by and large nationalists. But do you feel they are on our side or do you think their loyalty is swaying?
No. They are very much loyal to India. I’ll give two examples. One, the Kargil war. The percentage of Muslims in Indian Army would be something like two per cent, but find out how many Muslims were martyred in that war.

May be 38 out of 522, approximately 10 per cent.
More than that … around 14 per cent. But let’s take your figure … 10 per cent. This goes to show that in comparison with Hindus, more Muslims were martyred. Look at the struggle for Independence, Muslims were ahead, not behind anyone. Even the home minister who is also the deputy prime minister said in the Lok Sabha he was happy that not a single Indian Muslim was part of Al Qaeda. Advani said this in the Lok Sabha.

We are also proud of that. But take for example the bomb blasts in Mumbai, things that happened in Gujarat. Something has gone wrong. The equation seems to have changed.
I firmly believe those who are part of these terrorist activities should be severely punished. When have we not supported that? When it comes to terrorism in India or outside, it’s a first that the opposition has completely supported the government …
The shortcoming has been from the Centre. They do not have the will, foresight or strength. If they had these three qualities, there would be no terrorism.

If we return to UP, what do you think is the biggest problem? In your opinion, is it development or Ayodhya? What will take up most of your time in the next six months?
The biggest problem is development … If the students in UP get educational facilities and employment and everyone gets basic amenities like roads, water and electricity.
Today, farmers face the biggest problem. After so much hard work, they don’t get the deserved returns for their produce. And money that the government owes to farmers is rarely returned. But farmers have to pay their dues and interest on time … And if they demand their money, they get fired upon like it happened in the case of sugarcane farmers.

Ever since your party formed the government, it has been trapped in the Ayodhya issue and will continue to be. How do you plan to handle this?
I think we successfully handled the Ayodhya issue as our district administration did a good job.

But Ayodhya will come up again and again …
Yes, but the people of UP have not supported anyone raising the issue.
Don’t you think there’s a new kind of politics, the politics of the VHP … whether it be Togadia or Singhal. What kind of politicians are they since they never go out to seek votes. How do you tackle such politicians?
This is for the people, the Samajwadi Party and other alliances to decide what each wants.

But how much appeal do people like Togadia or Singhal have?
They don’t have any appeal. In fact, the people of Ayodhya this time did not shut their shops or markets though they lost out on customers during Diwali. But the Muslims and Hindus of Ayodhya are one. You must have seen how leading saints were going to Muslim homes to reassure them.

Have you thought of what will happen eventually? So many new forces have emerged in the name of Ayodhya. Many Hindus now feel that the temple should be built.
Maybe. But if all Hindus of this country had supported the Ayodhya issue, a temple would have been built by now. Hindus are in large numbers … and in the polls you can also see what percentage of their vote has gone to the BJP, ever since it joined hands with the VHP and RSS.
I still believe at least 75-76 per cent Hindus are voting against the BJP-RSS.

Do you think the Mathura and Kashi issues will be brought up again?
That is what they are saying.

Leaving aside the more developed western UP, when will farmlands of UP develop like those of Punjab and Haryana? Will there be population control? Will the level of unemployment or illiteracy come down or will it become another Bihar?
No, UP will never become another Bihar. Amar Singh has done a lot for UP, a lot of the developmental work is thanks to him. He heads the development council, he used his contacts and resources to bring in investors, even industrialists of international stature.

Arrival of industrialists is one thing, but till issues like irrigation, roads, education, health etc are not tackled and people see the change on ground, why should they raise themselves above this divide-and-rule agenda, whether it be on the lines of caste, religion or personal loyalties?
Amar Singhji told me that they (the investors) had three demands. He said they wanted electricity, roads, law and order. The fourth thing they said was that the UP bureaucracy was negative. They asked me who will coordinate and contact us. I put my hand on Amar Singh and said he will be your contact.
It’s true that the UP bureaucracy is negative. But if the rider is an able man, the horse will take its orders.

Should the people now think Mulayam Singh has changed and this is the new Mulayam Singh. Or is the same Mulayam Singh but we didn’t understand him earlier?
I am what I was in 1980s. But there were circumstances. When false encounters were taking place, innocent people were being killed without trial … what could I have done? I had to speak out against the government but I did not target anyone in particular.
But then they opened the lock (to the Babri Masjid). Black and yellow flags came up everywhere, what could I have said then? I was against the government for the sake of the country’s unity.
But when they attacked the masjid after I became CM in 1989, what could I have said? We took out rallies saying that it is one country and in the Constitution there is no discrimination.

So you’re saying that now you are not anti-upper caste or anti-Hindu or anti-Centre?
I am a humanitarian. I am with the farmers. Our Samajwadi Party’s policy is humanitarianism. I know and I have read that the greatest religion is serving people.

We will only come to know in the next six months whether your politics is based on votes or whether it’s the changed politics of development. It’s a tall order and I wish you best of luck. UP needs good governance and clean politics …