Sukhbir Singh Badal: Anybody can be CM, he has to be competent. Why should there be a difference between Hindus, Sikhs or Muslims?

Last time, the same pollster said AAP will get 100 seats, but they got 20. That too when there was an AAP wave and everyone was against the Akali Dal. We still got 31 per cent vote share, Congress got 36 per cent and AAP 21 per cent. Two years later in Parliament elections, AAP (seat share) went from 21 per cent to six per cent while the Akali seat share went up, and the difference between the Congress and Akali Dal was reduced to half a per cent. Six to eight months back, there were 13 corporation committee elections in Punjab. Out of 1,300 committees, AAP only got 25, we got 400.

You mark my words. We are going to form the government. Congress will not cross more than 15 seats. There is a complete rebellion in Congress. AAP is limited to pockets. There is no AAP in Majha and Doaba areas. And this time there’s no AAP wave. Secondly, Kejriwal has indirectly started projecting himself as the main face, which the Punjabis do not want at all.

Manraj Grewal Sharma: But AAP has projected Bhagwant Mann as the CM face.

No, have you seen the new slogan, ‘Kejriwal aur Bhagwant Mann ko mauka do. Why Kejriwal? Has the Congress ever said, Rahul Gandhi aur Navjot Singh Sidhu ko do? Has the BJP said, “So and so aur Modi ko do’? Punjab CM is a constitutional post. How can people say Kejriwal ko mauka do? Are we voting for Kejriwal or Bhagwant Mann? AAP is controlled entirely by Kejriwal. None of the AAP leaders in Punjab are allowed to hold a press conference; they are held by their spokesman Raghav Chadha. What was the philosophy of AAP? That an aam aadmi will be their candidate, like a milkman, or a workshop man, or a doctor. Where are those candidates now? Sixty per cent of the candidates fielded by AAP are defectors from Akali Dal and Congress. Their basic philosophy has completely vanished, that’s why people have started moving away from them.

Manraj Grewal Sharma: What makes you so confident? Because even now, the sacrilege issue is alive and more recently, there is a drugs case against Bikram Majithia (president, Akali Dal youth wing).

These are all false cases and everyone knows it. For five years, they tried their best to blame us, but they could not get a single proof. I’m confident because of the strength of our cadre. We have a strong cadre base; we are a 100-year-old traditional party, and in every village, every town, we have a base. And even with a storm like in the last polls, we got 30 per cent.

Manraj Grewal Sharma: What about Akali leaders like Sukhdev Singh Dhindsa who say Akali Dal has become a family party?

And what has Dhindsa done? Fielded his son, his son-in-law. Today I am the president of Akali Dal, next it can be somebody else. It’s a 100 year old traditional party.

Manraj Grewal Sharma: Do  you think you should have come out more strongly against the farm laws when they were tabled?

We told the BJP that if you implement the laws without approval of the farmers, we will not be part of you. So the day they forced the Bill in Parliament, we left them. Ninety per cent of the farmers’ base is with the Akali Dal. Most of the unions are one of the subunits of the Communist Party. The ones who are fighting the elections here are mostly from the Communist Party.

Sunny Verma: You withdrew support from the NDA primarily due to the farm laws. Now that the government has repealed those laws, will you be open to aligning again with the NDA or the BJP?

We, at the moment, have now aligned with the BSP. We are not the types to switch sides. Now we are with the BSP, there’s no question of going with the BJP.

Vandita Mishra: You sort of tried to say that the farmers’ agitation was basically a Left union-led movement. But all of us who went to the ground could see how deeply it had percolated and that there was popular cynicism towards established parties like yours.

I think you did not take my answer in the right spirit. I said this agitation was led by farm unions, but the movement was of the people of Punjab. Now the unions have come back to fight elections, they will lose security deposit in at least 90 per cent of the seats they fight. During the agitation, maybe the farm unions were the frontmen. Now our cadre has come back to us, the Congress cadre has gone back to them. Even Balbir Singh Rajewal, who’s supposed to be their CM face, will not even be the second runners-up at Samrala.

Manraj Grewal Sharma: What about the charge that Captain Amarinder was in cahoots with the Badals and their work did not stop despite the change of the government?

After Charanjit Singh Channi came, Navjot Singh Sidhu said Channi is in cahoots with us. Earlier, he was accusing Amarinder of being involved with us. Why are they so scared of us? As you said, we are written off. They have been trying their best to find something on us, but they failed. Amarinder registered a case against my family. We were acquitted by the courts. So these are political statements to cover up their misdeeds.

Manraj Grewal Sharma: What about the charge that Jat Sikhs have had a hegemony over the CMship despite being only 25 per cent of the population and that Akali Dal is a Jat Sikh party?

Akali Dal is an all-inclusive party. Akali Dal has  the maximum Hindu candidates. Most of the time, Akalis win all the Dalit seats as well.

Vandita Mishra: In 2010, you had gone very strong on development issues like the Saanjh Kendra, the self-certification push, in your campaign. Today what we are hearing is the Majithia case, the Bargari issue. Do you think this election campaign is now not leaving you space for those kinds of issues anymore?

Travel anywhere in Punjab and you’ll see the road network created by the Akali Dal. We made Punjab power-surplus, we’ve created an airport network. In the last five years, you cannot find even one example of such development. The reason they are sticking to Bargari and Majithia case is because they want to cover up the incompetent five years. Congress shut down the Seva Kendras.

Vandita Mishra: What about the issue of whether a Hindu can be chief minister of Punjab?

I think anybody can be chief minister, he has to be competent. He has to have leadership qualities. Why should there be a difference between Hindus, Sikhs or Muslims?

Manraj Grewal Sharma: Have you met the Prime Minister after the farm laws, after this break? He has been calling up your father.

No, I have not met the Prime Minister. There are certain courtesies that are extended at that level of leadership, so you cannot read too much into it. We left them because they stabbed us in the back. It is not that we wanted to leave.

Manraj Grewal Sharma: So there is no going back to the BJP? Never?

Never, I can’t say. But at the moment, no.

Sukhbir Siwach: Are the issues of farmers and the three farm laws still central in the upcoming election?

Agriculture as a whole is a Central issue, farm laws not anymore because they have been withdrawn. Now other issues have come up.

Manraj Grewal Sharma: Sidhu has been saying the state government should encourage diversification by giving MSP for vegetables etc.

Why didn’t they give it in the last five years? I challenge Congress to name one new school they built, one new road, one new bridge, one new sewage treatment plant. They cannot even name one. This is the worst government Punjab has ever had. They have just ruined the state, fighting with each other.

Manraj Grewal Sharma: The last time, sacrilege and drugs were the two issues that led to Akali Dal’s defeat.

No, sacrilege was one small part. At that time Capt Amarinder Singh swore on Gutka Sahib that he would waive off all the loans, be it from banks, arhtiyas or any moneylenders, and people believed him. But they were defrauded. If sacrilege was a major issue, the Akali Dal  wouldn’t have got 31 per cent. There were at least 30 seats on which we lost by less than 1,000 votes.

Manraj Grewal Sharma: It’s alleged that Akali Dal did not collect revenue for the government but for its own leaders.

Please look at the revenue generation during the time of Congress and Akali Dal. Liquor revenue in 2002 was Rs 2,000 crore a year. In 2007, when Captain Amarinder left, it was Rs 2,000 crore a year; no increase in five years. We took it from Rs 2,000 crore  to Rs 5,500 crore a year. Even in this tenure, the Congress government has failed to increase its liquor revenue. When we took over, VAT was Rs 5,000 crore, we took it up to Rs 70,000 crore a year.

Navjeevan Gopal: Coming to this drugs case against Majithia, the Congress is claiming that it is the first step towards justice.

How many DGPs did they have to change who said we cannot register a case because it’s false. Two DGPs of the state had to be removed. Two Bureau of Investigation chiefs had to be removed. Then finally, they had to get Siddharth Chattopadhyaya. They made him (the DGP) just for those 20 days to register a case. In those 20 days, there was a bomb blast in Ludhiana,  sacrilege in Darbar Sahib, and security lapse during Prime Minister’s visit. Then, he filed an FIR, not in any police station of the state but in a temporary thana in his office. They used non-bailable sections, they planned out everything (against Majithia).

Vandita Mishra: You say that the AAP is not a Punjabi party; it is from outside. Now, isn’t that precisely its USP? Because there is a cynicism in the people for the parties that have ruled Punjab. Also,  what is it that the regional party can do in Punjab which the national party can’t?

If we want an outsider, why don’t we get some party from Germany or the US? Why AAP? Second, Kejriwal calls for shutting down the Punjab thermal plant. He goes to the Supreme Court and files an affidavit that the SYL canal should take water from Punjab to Delhi. So, where is the loyalty? National parties have other interests, they compromise the state’s interest. That is the difference. For us, this is our life.

P Vaidyanathan Iyer: In the backdrop of the farm laws protests, Capt Amarinder had raised issues of national security with the Prime Minister and the Home Minister. What are these national security issues?

Punjab is a border state with Pakistan. Every day you see arms being thrown here, drugs being pushed through. We had 15 black years because of Pakistan. Once the farmers’ agitation started and the whole state got involved, it was giving an opportunity to people across the border to fuel it, make it violent, and give it a different direction. So, for the safety, security of the country, please don’t mess around with a border state, because neighbouring Pakistan is always waiting for an opportunity to get in.

P Vaidyanathan Iyer: How are you looking at Centre-State relations with a dominant party at the Centre?

The Centre has taken away all the powers. States have become like municipalities. Today, when we pay the salary bill depends on when we get the funds from the Centre. Earlier, every day, money used to come into our accounts. So we could play with our own finances. Now dues are not cleared for months. So we have become beggars. Today, wherever the Centre wants, it sends the ED there. NIA walks in from anywhere. Look at the new rule for IAS officers.

They can transfer them, so all instructions will come from them. You’re creating a dictatorship in stead of a democracy.

P Vaidyanathan Iyer: What about politics itself? Do you see politics itself becoming very vitriolic, very bitter?

I think it is. The cordial relationships which used to be commonplace during my father’s time have vanished. It’s become more personal, vindictive, abusive.

P Vaidyanathan Iyer: What would you attribute that to?

I think the new generation. In my father’s time, the leader, the statesman, never went beyond a limit. Now, everyone has become a street fighter. Media also loves interviewing these kind of people.

P Vaidyanathan Iyer: What is your vision for taking forward Punjab’s industrial growth and economy?

First of all, Punjab needs to elect a strong CM who is decisive, who has a vision and who has performed. Everything depends on a CM. The CM is the engine, the rest are all coaches. In the last five years, the engine was stuck in a farmhouse. You don’t need money, you need ideas, money follows.

Manraj Grewal Sharma: If you come to power in Punjab, what are the three challenges that you face? And how do you plan to resolve them?

Last time, my priorities were the road network and power. I challenge any state to have the infrastructure we have. This time, my priority is education and health care. Education means government education. I want to change from quantity education to quality education. I’m going to have a 500-bed medical college in every district. It solves two purposes. One, you’re going to educate your children to become doctors. Second, a 500-bed hospital facility is created in the district.

Rahul Sabharwal: AAP pitches the success of its healthcare and education in Delhi as two of its main planks.

How many mohalla clinics are working? Is anybody saying that 250 mohalla clinics are doing well? How many New Delhi schools have been upgraded out of the 2,000? You do one, two or 10 schools and show that you’ve done everything there. Majority of the mohalla clinics are shut.

Anant Goenka: Punjab is an agrarian economy, but why is climate change not an election issue despite the falling water table? And when do you think climate change will become an election issue in your state?

It is a very important issue, but everyone is brushing it under the carpet.  In fact, it is the most important issue. The way the water level is dipping, in another 20 years, Punjab will be a desert. I have a plan for it. We are going to do groundwater recharging in our rivers — Sutlej, Beas. Second, my whole thrust now is going to be on solar power. I’m going to allow industries to set up their own solar power plants. As for power subsidies, instead of giving cash to the electricity department, we will set up a parallel solar plant and we will transfer that much power to the power company. And this will be a self-financing model.

Kanchan Vasdev: If the Akali Dal is voted to power, what would be the fate of the Majithia case?

What happens in false cases? What do you do? Same thing will happen.