Regret quitting BJP… trying to make up for it: Zadafia

You were the first Home Minister in Gujarat under Z-category security cover because of the 2002 riots.

Yes, because the cases were still going on in different courts. Some cases are still going on. And the recent nexus detected by the ATS and Crime Branch seems more serious with Chhota Shakeel links. But life is normal and we also travel. There is no security for the family (members) — my wife, son, daughter-in-law, and two grand-daughters.

During your stint as home minister, was there any case against gangsters?

There were some cases of encounter. There was a case of recovery of weapons and RDX in Dabhel in Navsari (in February 2002 before the Godhra train burning incident).

Questions are being raised about the timing of this case…in the middle of your tour with (BJP state president) CR Paatil…

There are sleeper cells. There is no time limit to activate a sleeper cell. They have a design. These incidents happen during peaceful period… when unexpected. When riots are happening, you will not witness such incidents. Any terrorist can plan with support of local sleeper cell. Sleeper cell would not know where they are being used.

Why would you be targeted? You are not holding any post in the establishment.

I don’t know. I came to know of it from Pradeepsinh (Jadeja, MoS home). I said, ‘I do not know. I am on tour… So, do as you may deem fit.’ What else could I say?

In this connection, have they recorded your statement? To know if you perceived any threat?

No. A couple of IB (Intelligence Bureau) officers of DSP rank came to meet me. But there was nothing of that sort (recording statement). One thing is for sure that there was something and it has been revealed. And it is my government, I should not worry.

Between 2012 and 2020, did you feel any such threat perception?

Once a recce was done on me when I was on a tour of Valsad and Navsari districts (in South Gujarat). I was under Z category security. I was in a farmhouse in Navsari with my wife where some 4-5 people in cars came inquring at the place we dined. At Tithal, around 7 pm, I was sitting with my wife when some 4-5 people surrounded us. I noticed none else was around and asked my commandos to check . They escaped on seeing the commandos. I had given a report to the government about it and it was investigated. But nothing was found.

Earlier you have said that there was threat to your life. Your deposition before Nanavati Commission (probing the riots) was also in-camera.

Once I had told the government that since the (2002 riots) cases are going on, because of which something may happen, and gave in writing to the government in 2012, when the security was downgraded to Y-category. I had asked for the Z-category security to continue.

What was their (the government’s) response?

I got a reply that Y was appropriate. And I did not insist.

You were in Gujarat Parivartan Party (founded by former CM Keshubhai Patel) in 2012 when your security was downgraded, right?

Yes.

You had once said that you might meet the fate of Haren Pandya…

I never made such a statement.

Between the two — Gujarat riots of 2002 and your connection with the Ram temple movement — which one do you think could be the reason behind this conspiracy to kill you?

I can’t guess. But I must congratulate the Gujarat Police. At least they could reveal it before it happened. The intelligence of Gujarat Police is admirable.

Before this, there were five plots targeting then CM Narendra Modi, VHP leader Pravin Togadia and others. In those cases, police killed the alleged perpetrators. Do you see a marked shift in strategy?

Right from the day one many events have happened (plots busted) because of the vigilance-intelligence of the state police… action is secondary. Gujarat IB is powerful.

As former home minister, do you think it is better to capture than kill to get to the bottom of the plot? Unlike the encounters that happened…

Everything is even proved by the Supreme Court, the motive. The encounter(s) which took place is known to everyone.

In this case, the plot has unravelled because the accused are captured. In the 26/11 case, because Kasab was captured the investigators got to the bottom of the plot. In earlier cases, we have hit a wall because the alleged executors were killed. Which strategy is better?

There cannot be a permanent strategy on whether to arrest and keep them alive (laughs). It depends, how they are acting and reacting. Many times, if you keep them alive, they may not give a chance to the force to be alive. So, it is up to the situation. A decision has to be made on the spot.

Do you feel that your security should be upgraded to Z-category?

Looking at the situation, yes. It is up to them. But the way it has been revealed, it should be done. At present, I am given full protection.

Do you see yourself getting bigger responsibility ?

I have no ambition. I have publicly declared my only wish is that my bier should be covered with a pall of lotus symbol. That will be the highest honour to me. I don’t mind whatever I get in between. I was in charge of Uttar Pradesh (assembly elections), Maharashtra…

It was said that UP charge was to keep you out of Gujarat…

That is there. People can look with their perception. But my perception was very clear that Narendrabhai Modi and Amitbhai Shah, have faith in me. That is why they sent me to a state that required maximum number of seats (to be won) to form the government. In a different atmosphere, in a different political scenario, I was chosen. As election incharge, I stationed at Lucknow till the elections were over. Not like other Prabharis who came back.

There is a lot of criticism that there was no social distancing in any of Paatil’s tours. In fact Paatil has said at one place, your commandos got on to his jeep…

See, we tried everywhere. We kept masks, thermal guns, sanitisers everywhere. I do agree that it should not have happened.

You have seen the BJP since the time of Keshubhai Patel, Narendra Modi. You even fought against the party. How do you see these phases?

Compared to the earlier phase of 1995, the party has now expanded all across the country. We have presence in North East and South, except Kerala. Earlier, it was considered as a party of cities and metros. It has gone to the grassroots of the rural sections…

India is emerging (on the global scene) under the leadership of Narendrabhai Modi in all aspects. BJP, once upon a time, was an untouchable party. During the leadership of Atalji, the extreme opponents were together, including Jammu & Kashmir—Abdullahs were part of NDA government of Atalji, even Mamata Banerjee. The party was no longer untouchable.

Narendrabhai took over in 2014. The 10 years of UPA government had ruined the country. Faith in Modi government resulted in 2019. And after 2019, the government’s work has touched the people. For example, (abrogation of Article) 370 (from J&K), the Citizenship Amendment Act.

But in his home state, BJP could not even win 100 seats in the 2017 assembly elections.

I agree, 2017 was crucial for us. Because ever since the BJP came to power, 2017 was highest threat we faced. Casteism prevailed in the state for the first time. And the faith between the castes in rural sector was broken and I should say it was a tough period for us.

Was absence of Narendra Modi the reason?

Whatever it is, it was the first time this has happened. In 2019, we had majority in 173 assembly seats out of 182. Congress had majority only in 9 seats.

What are the weak points?

There are 4-5 seats we have never won.

Do we see a Muslim getting a BJP ticket in the Gujarat assembly elections? Like Jamalpur constituency in Ahmedabad?

I am not the authority to say that. But we have many people from minority community in local self government bodies across the state… In many of the districts, we have these members (from minority Muslim community), elected members.

There is no place in Gujarat where minority is in majority. There is not a single seat. Only thing, you (have to) touch their heart by helping them. By (creating an) atmosphere, by slogans, you can win once or twice. If you want to win every time, it is only (by) achievement.

BJP came to power on temple and Hindutva agenda. Today, when you talk about achieve-ments, you don’t even menti-on the Ram mandir. Why?

Temple was in our agenda. Now, the honourable court has given the verdict and irrespective of communities and religion, everybody accepted it, by grace of god. And it is good for the nation that polarisation in the name of temple has not happened. Everybody accepted, even minorities accepted it (the verdict). It is a good sign for the nation.

Was polarisation good?

No no. This decision has made the country united. It is a milestone for the future of India.

Do you think BJP will gain from the verdict in the Gujarat elections?

Temple issue was there from day one in the BJP’s agenda. Article 370, Common Civil Code, they are there from Jan Sangh’s time. We never abandoned it. But development, welfare ideas will help. The schemes Narendrabhai brought as Prime Minister, such as Jan Dhan Yojana, and Ujjwala Yojana, are for the poor. When he talked about Shauchalay, people criticised us — the party, which was talking for Devalay is now talking about Shauchalay.

The BJP in the era of Vajpayee and Advani, never fought elections in their name. Today, they are seeking votes in the name of Narendra Modi. Do you see a shift here?

Narendrabhai as a leader has proved by his achievement. And party is known by its leader. But our party is not a family party. That is the difference. Congress is a family party. Even SP, BSP… Ours is a party that can bring a man from a poorest place to the highest place. Amitbhai, was a booth level party worker. He could become the all-India president. Only thing is one has to shoulder the responsibility.

Do you see people voting differently in state elections and national elections?

Yes, definitely. It has been proven — Parliament of 2014 and Parliament of 2019. But, many of the states we couldn’t (win)… Rajasthan, Jharkhand. Sometimes, state leadership also plays a role.

Was this the reason why BJP got less seats in Gujarat elections and 100% in national elections?

2017 was different… otherwise we were not less than 115 or 120 also. Casteism played a greater role. Wherever casteism prevails, nationalism gets diluted. It is a proven fact.

But that became a decisive factor even in the BJP. They are taking in Patidars…

No, now casteism will not prevail. Only the achievement of the government and ideology of the party will prevail.

Don’t you think the roots were in the GPP movement, which got Patidars together ?

Not really. Because the face of the leader face was that (of a Patidar), people do assume (that it was a Patidar movement).

All the people who joined GPP were Patidars…

No. It was because of the feelings and affection for the leader that more people came. But that is past.

Gordhanbhai of 2002 and Gordhanbhai of 2020, how different are they?

I am the same. I am working more than earlier. I am giving everything to my party.

What is your biggest lesson from your journey?

One should not lose faith in the party. One should not deviate from the path. Unfortunately for me, I deviated my path for a few years, damaging my career opportunities. Nation is bigger than an individual. Grievances can be redressed. One should wait for their time.

Do you regret quitting the BJP?

Yes. And I am trying to make up… if at all, the loss caused to my party because of me. I am giving back with interest.. I am a human being. It may be a mistake… I’m not god. But I have repaid.

VHP was building the temple. How do you see this whole thing, VHP not getting enough credit as an organisation?

Everybody put in their efforts. Whole of the saints of all sections of Hindu society. Everybody worked. Credit goes to everyone. So, it is not that an individual should get credit. It is to the nation’s credit.

Did you go to Ayodhya in 1992 for the movement?

I was associated… I was secretary (of VHP at that time).

How many times you have gone to the disputed site?

Three- four times.

Before the mosque fell?

Yes, I have been there.

What is your memory of the movement at that time? If you can recall some incident.

Even the poorest of the people gave one rupee (as donation). It was really something above politics. I travelled all across. People giving shila and the faith they had. I cannot forget.

And this faith took a lot of people from Gujarat for the karseva and many of them were killed in the train burning incident, leading to the riots in which some 900 people were killed. What do you feel about these lives lost because of a movement?

These are the things which we can’t say anything… reason… But whatever has happened, today Ram Janmabhoomi has given a new roadmap to the country. Every section of the society has accepted it and there is no grievance. I think this is good verdict which the court has given.

But do you think that was a huge price to pay?

I can’t comment anything about that. Only I can see the bright future for India by the verdict.

CR Paatil has started a system of having ministers camp at party headquarters. Was there a sense from within the organisation that there is a lot of discontent among workers?

There is always a need to redress grievances of party workers. When Keshubhai was the Chief Minister, I was doing that part (as general secretary). Sitting at Bungalow No. K-11(party office) in Gandhinagar. There was a co-ordination (issue) with the government. I used to send letters to the minister concerned, follow them up and review them every three months. It is good to attend to a party worker. He is our grassroot worker who brings the votes. His grievances are not individual grievances, but those of people.

But you were not a minister.

I was not the minister. It was the system. Whether it is a party functionary or a minister, it is the same. Because I used to send (letters) to all the ministers.

Do you think the Pradhan Mantri Fasal Bima Yojana was a good idea? Farmers were very upset with it.

It is a good scheme. But the implementation through private agencies of insurance companies became a hurdle…

Do you think the private players should not have been involved?

Private players are there to get the profit… it is not a charitable institution. There motive is always to make profit.

Do you think it’s a good decision to suspend the Question Hour in the parliament?

Yes, because now it is to recover whatever is lost. It is no time to dig out the skeletons.

Don’t you think, Question Hour is for the people’s issues?

Question hour is required, but this is a time not to go for it. It is a time to go for a positive thing. There must be some reason for cancelling, I don’t know.