Express Conversations Ep 09: Devdutt Pattanaik

[00:00:00] Snigdha Sharma: Welcome to another episode of express conversations, a podcast where eminent voices from the world of politics, sports business, and the arts. Talk to us about the life and work and issues that really matter. In this episode, author, mythologist and leadership consultant. Devdutt Pattnaik was in conversation with the executive director of The Indian Express Group, Anant Goenka. Pattnaik's work focuses on deriving management insights. From mythology to reveal a very Indian approach to modern business. He has authored over 30 books. Many of them bestsellers like Myth: Mithya, Business Sutra, the pregnant king and Shikhandi His new book Eden looks at Jewish Christian and Islamic lore from an Indian lens in this conversation based on his new book, he talks about monotheistic religions and here it goes...

[00:00:52] Anant Goenka: When we combine these three religions as you have, I mean, you're going to be able to recall them. Abrahamic beautifully mentioned lots of stories and the differences between the three religions in their interpretation of each story and the similarities specifically with the birth of Christ and the fact that he's a savior.

What are the differences? What are the similarities amongst these religions?

[00:01:16] Devdutt Pattnaik: So you don't find this word Abrahamic being used, let's say by the colonized When India was ruled by the British, the British never used the word Abrahamic. They never saw themselves as part of a common ecosystem with the Muslims of India, the British controlled India, the India they came to was ruled by Muslim.

So the north India, the great empires. So they looked at Muslims with great hostility and they don't see them as part of a common religious tradition. It's very important to remember this. The what Abrahamic started being used only after the Gulf War. Because as these, as back before the Gulf war, the Americans never saw themselves as part of a larger ecosystem.

So when we talk of East also refer to the Muslim. When they say Western world, they referred to the Christian and the liberal world, the enlightenment, or the European or American word, maybe the Jewish. But maybe I'd say that very, very reluctant because that's another story, but the Muslim world is Abrahamic.

They don't use the word it's only been gone for modern scholars. Want to show that, you know, what was lives are also part of the same theological framework that the word is from an Indian perspective, all these sensibilities, we must be aware of that book because I know the Jewish lobby or the Jewish are uncomfortable club together.

The Christians that uncomfortable together, but from an Indian perspective, and that's where the book is an Indian book, because for us, they look similar, they seem similar. There's so much inc ommon between them. It's almost like when the west looks at the east of the private club, everything to get all the reciprocation.

So in a way, this is a kind of Occidental realism because. I'm looking at it from an Indian perspective. And that disband though word sort of explodes into different things and flavors, which when I buy a book of the Bible, let's say published by a European publisher and I have been buying them spear exposed to these books.

You realize that never talk about or make allowance for Jewish. Allowances. They don't really talk much, but he never really heard about Islamic glory. And I wonder why I suddenly realized that a whole bunch of stories in the salami word, Jesus is it a paigambar is seen as a prophet, not as a son of mark, but he's seen as a profit.

So that's a very fundamental difference. The whole idea of father, son and holy ghost. Of Christianity is not accepted in Islamic war. Expect Jesus Christ as a prophet. His mother, Miriam of Berry in medium is the Arabic word for very, is mentioned by me. The only moment maybe in the forearm happens to be the mother of Jesus who in the Catholic faith is called the mother of God.

Because Jesus is truly a sociological argument seen as not just the son of God, but God himself. So that is a complex theological argument and that these wonderful stories of how Mary is walking in the Arabic traditions. And whenever she's hungry, please bend down so that she can keep the date. And when a machine is thirsty, the first soap and water comes from the ground.

So she's never posted. So she's always provided because she's getting a very special child. So never heard these stories before. Nobody tells me these stories and they're like, I'm a sucker for stories. I love stories. And especially when they have such deep connections. So that's what I wanted to show them how the Islamic stories are awful, but they're different from the Christian stories and even both the price to seem to forgive his story.

I had not heard, but I haven't heard of the Bethlehem and a part of the activity because I, I started in the wealthiest high school in Chimbu. So familiar with the Christian story is familiar. I library had all these books so familiar very much with the new Testament, but not at this. Right. So

[00:05:19] Anant Goenka: fundamentally, if we were to explore the, I mean, first clarify, Judaism is 4,000 years.

Yes, Christianity is 2000 years and Islam is about 1400. So this is kind of how we kind of establish that in the middle. And Buddhism would come two and a half

[00:05:40] Devdutt Pattnaik: thousand years before Christianity. It's about 500 years before.

[00:05:45] Anant Goenka: No, you're absolutely right. I mean, the word Abrahamic could be people who would not like to be clubbed these villages together and put a wall painted as Abrahamic or whatever.

However they categorize, but monotheistic and polytheistic and atheistic. These are three broad categories that we can look at

[00:06:02] Devdutt Pattnaik: religion. But again, as I said, these are Benny fundamental, debatable ideas. So we'll get pretty excited about. Yeah.

So

[00:06:17] Anant Goenka: if we just go back to saying that. In your view, why doesn't Buddha in a sense, is he the Indian version of that monotheistic kind of an approach? I mean, I, I'm just going to

[00:06:33] Devdutt Pattnaik: as an idea is a European idea. It comes really with the Romans and the Roman Catholic church and the missionary activity. India. There've been used words like peace. We use words like Nasthik and Asthik, traditionally Asthik and Nasthik refer to do you believe in the vedic ritual Gnostics for people who've valorized giving up, not getting married and doing the household.

And technically the word asked many people who believe that you have to Matty in order, believe my deck to ancestors. It's the original meaning of the word. When people use a plastic, plastic colonized the views, these words to report to eighties and his, um, and all of these concepts. But they're basically refer to many guards in the board of 33.

But he said he's more interested in a word where there is not nothing. So he's actually technically pieced one can save, but it's a very difficult point because he's also referring to the , but he's also talking about the world, but there is no God at all, that is creator. So you can't use the simple classification.

These classifications are created scholars. He's an Indian classic. For example, depending on the lens, how do you define this idea? That one God taking many forms. So is the polytheistic one guard as consciousness now is consciousness as a guard at the sky needs the word, but does it atheistic? So it really make things complicated, unfortunately for the Western world, because they are like, oh God is.

You don't even Jainism does not have the God, so , but they also have guards like in the R the polytheistic, this reveals how big India and Indian ideas, drama ideas that emerged in the middle east.

[00:08:42] Anant Goenka: I would love to go into exploring, you know, how we reacted to when these ideas of when that lens was given on to India.

And I think that. You know my favorite part of the book, but I think let's first start with saying, you know, the fundamental difference between how you have classified monotheism and monotheistic parts and ideas with India. I think what you kind of said is that one fundamental difference is that the way that they taught at monotheistic culture kind of thinks about it is world will end at one day and life kind of ends.

And when it ends, when you end, when your life. Somebody is playing God and we're not playing global board will actually decide whether you've been good or bad eternal damnation, or whether you go to heaven. And eventually all living beings will end up one place or the other. Versus when I say Indian, you know, every word here can be kind of split.

I'm just kind of consciously saying versus I guess, traditionally older Indian culture politics.

[00:09:40] Devdutt Pattnaik: This is ideas that originated in India and ideas that originated in the middle east or the place of origin is not religion is very specific. And if I were to paraphrase what you said, the idea that originated in. The big idea, which comes from India is that, that does not be mean that does not yet.

[00:10:00] Anant Goenka: And this is a fundamental idea, which is an Indian idea, which disagrees,

[00:10:04] Devdutt Pattnaik: why do I say middle Eastern?

Because where they is Judaism Christianity, all of the Legion, which is middle east. So it is Mesopotamia. It is OSHA. It is Anon or Israel or level, and it is known broadly. I mean, now we see that with Europe and America, but these ideas from the middle east to Europe, during the Roman empire and from Europe, it moves through American.

You winning the discovered it age of discovery, but it is essentially a medicinal point of origin becomes important. Is he American or Indian, or how do I refer to American or Indian? Because it's the point of origin and the passport need not be the same.

[00:10:53] Anant Goenka: Facing the point of original of an idea, comparing the Indian idea to the middle Eastern idea.

This is one fundamental difference and just creates all kinds of differences and understanding of life at time never ends soul level.

[00:11:04] Devdutt Pattnaik: So let's look at the sponsor for climate change. Right? Look at the women. Talk about climate change. You see how grit up and bug is presented as a profit. She's this profit she's like Joan of arc fighting.

We don't, you see the visualization global way of explaining climate changes. Apocalypse. The end of the world is coming and it's almost as of Jeremiah, the prophet is going in the cities and see repent. Otherwise you will, they should, they have judgment that is born by climate scientists and they keep wondering why Chinese are not responding the way they should, because this language that is not familiar with us, boom, they'll come to an end.

It's also the Marxist. Revolution will happen one day language or apocalypse. And also you see the superhero movies. The world is always coming to an end. There's a panic. And then, oh my God. If I killed the word mini series by Sunday, but nigga do I have the mouth big time? It goes back to life, the superheroes back to life, which means when you Don a Hollywood movie from one movie has to make more money, you make it a trilogy and then you make it a mini series.

Because you cannot not believe in rebirth. You believe the boy does not come to an end. You say that the boy keeps continuing and evolving and adapting and changing. This idea of impermanence is good. This is Jane is Hindu. It originates in subcontinent. It is the unique idea which is developed by. That's China and Southeast Asia, which I was released in Europe.

It is the unique Indian idea. One of the biggest things that I read people and the language that is used, all my books over the last 25 years. This is the primary idea. They're trying to explain to people that, you know, half of confusion or other problems, because there's no, you know, there are very fundamental words.

It should state as imagined the way life is. Imagine. Lunation standard board exists in the world 200 years. It's an idea which emerges gradually after the French revolution. It's a European idea and reward nation is coming for glory and therefore you have this anxiety rush, rush. We are trying to benchmark ourselves based on an Abrahamic concept and then saying we are de-colonizing

most of the people who claim to be de-colonizing are the ones who are colonizing because they don't realize the language. India has explored. Jainism is very good. It's not additive. There is no one life that is not judged. That is the anxiety champeta figured out a way to live together. Things are in good idea.

So that's why I wrote this book because even as the standardized, but if he lived that and then what goes wrong and then things start going wrong and then the need for a rescue. The need for son of God, the need for, because all human beings want all the base of happiness for this book on flake. There's no tension.

So there is a human element which unites all cultures and that's what we should focus on. But there is also. I'd be happy to acknowledge that you don't acknowledge that, which we did in our country and around the word you keep using words like unity and diversity, without realizing it's a Venn diagram.

There are things which are common that I think that are uncommon and it's doesn't mean you're better or worse. It's just a different idea. So all the Indian

[00:14:37] Anant Goenka: gods were rooted very strongly as characters and are not official. But this question of whether it's from, are they saving us from evil? I mean, is that a commonality that we.

[00:14:46] Devdutt Pattnaik: Now, this is interesting. Look at the wording you will, which we use so casual. You cannot translate this.

[00:14:51] Anant Goenka: Okay. But good and bad. Is that fundamental to our stories or is that also a Western important? It's also a story of the victim.

[00:15:01] Devdutt Pattnaik: So that's the way we are taught. This is the way we are. Right. That is not the way that the ones who wrote it.

Did not see the bad guy. He saw them as people were insecure

and in the next slide, maybe they begin it. So the Jainism, they will talk about . So it's not that he's going to be in hell damnation. You actually have a story, which tells you that Robert in his next life, and he has figured out, you know what, this passion is not healthy. He becomes that up. So this idea of that, everyone goes through these cycles and it's a very Indian idea.

So this evil word is a word which comes from one life. So, you know, when people are violent and evil, kill them and let your dehumanizing someone, but just in one life. And I live. There is no second chance. So there is the people who follow the rules. Well, good. And people who don't follow the rules are back and therefore they evil.

There's no redemption. What is the definition of evil of the apple loss? Someone who's devoid of divinity dismiss. It is not redeemable, but now look at about what says the whole world. I am everything that you imagined. So that means you separate something outside of the board. It's a very different way.

[00:16:28] Anant Goenka: Absolutely. This is what makes us so interesting because the way we're looking at these stories, so this whole idea of binary's right, good. Evil is already going and evil. It's just either binary is, it's like your truth. My truth. There is a truth. There is a false, and we talk about that, which I felt pretty fascinating in your book, you know, where you were talking.

There is a truth. And this idea that we are chasing a universal truth. Let's talk about that.

[00:16:51] Devdutt Pattnaik: So now we see around the word Parliament's out long, Jack 36, not just in India. You're seeing what has happened in the climate change conference. One group says that the group says. Because the only one can exist.

The other cannot, therefore that is normal for negotiation. There is no book on mercy. It is about power either I am right. Or you are right anytime, but I follow my way and, uh, or the other way around. So this idea of my way or the Hy-Vee emerges, the idea that you have. I mean, it has now become a hedge of, on me, everybody beads and therefore since only one group can exist.

Every conversation. Oh, arm wrestling match. So you see some television, you see boardroom school, you see some colleges, everything is an arm wrestling. You don't have a healthy conversation and say, you know what? Let's figure out a Venn diagram. Let's see what we can not common or. But if it, because that is not the approach, the approaches that either I will be not, you will be both of us cannot be.

And, uh, if both of us have to be like boobs, you take a deal. The deal cannot have been in the conversation. And by him did this just casually say to newbies, and you will see people getting uncomfortable. And this climate change is a classic example of, you know, the word is coming to an end. And it's like everything, everything will collapse.

Human beings will find a way, but all human beings, some of them will be the price. And it's not necessarily the rich people who will survive. That's how this. Dialogue conversation. That's what wins democracies. You wouldn't buy me these grants. I will be the savior,

[00:18:50] Anant Goenka: simplifies the conflict,

[00:18:53] Devdutt Pattnaik: which is. In a small group, but it is not great when you deal with 7 billion people. If they've been in the family, you could perhaps do this people, people that argue, but the larger loops you have and you handle a large organization. It's not the same as managing house or exactly the household and self management is so difficult.

Then you make a call, okay. Who takes the decision of the house? And you make the decisions, but in the larger groups, if it gets even more. These are idea. That's what reason, what I did this book is I think Emir should present this idea to the world. We are continuously using colonized playbooks to explain ourselves.

And it's so sad. It's so sad because I see some smart people writing books emerging around the world, which are talking about it's almost as if they're discovering it.

I just want to

[00:19:48] Anant Goenka: clarify that you're not looking at this idea, this like how life works in monotheistic cultures in a very binary fashion. We're not suggesting that that's not the way to do it. We're just saying that that's.

[00:20:00] Devdutt Pattnaik: Yeah. So another way, see, that's the problem. The problem with the beta design is when you present ideas to the winner, this is how a mind has been designed.

We are now genuinely believing that the kit will give you an idea and that's not the way life works. The thing is it's left brain and right.

And the right brain looks at perspective, larger slurs. It talks about perspective, but that's what people . I've heard this one, so many business people loving good part, but then they said it doesn't to take a decision. It doesn't feed my killer instinct. It doesn't feed my profit motivation because that's what I want.

And the left is continuously giving you things that I need that again, because it's a team. So really you can look at either as really an expression of the left and you can look at the Indian part of the LIBOR ideas as an expression of the right degree, but at the simple, these ideas existed. So when you read, actually you're eating.

For example, the easiest example I can give is in Jainism, you have a hopper, which is . So they have stories it's ideal in the way, when you read the stories, you realize it's. And when you read that the Tonka, it is more Sonata, infinity oriented, the confetti Indian south Asia idea. So in many ways they're accommodating each troop is like either.

But when I look at all the troops, I am getting another view. So they're not excluding anything. They're not saying one is better than the other. So, if you wanted to approach this book from an Indian point of view, you will include it. But if you approach this book from a colonial point of view, you'll say this is better than

So the colonial mind found to be better because it can't handle my difficulties. So I don't want to be calibrated. I refuse to be called. British and bonds gone, seven deals. I don't want to call it. Right. So if you want to be colonized, yes. Then there must be one tool which is better. We will believe the milkshake, the baking away from largest political shackles, but also intellectual bindings.

We have to move. What is the purpose? How does it invite them about. How does the word estimate function? How much you can learn from most leadership ideas come from the old Testament, all leadership ideas. In fact leadership, as an idea is the brittle is Abraham. It is not a global idea. It's Abrahamic idea.

So every time. Whenever you say you you're actually using a very bang up a prophet concept who will lead me to the promised land who will lead me, bring me happily ever after. Take me to the land of milk and honey. So it's Moses taking you to the promised land. It is saving you from the flood. It is . It is Solomon, who is a wise judge.

So all ideas, which we, a lot of management theory.

[00:23:20] Anant Goenka: So why isn't Krishna begging you to victory in your, whatever your battle is

[00:23:25] Devdutt Pattnaik: because the. So the you win the war, but by the beatitudes, all your children die. And over the year, children will die and will happen, but on sequence. So now look at how modern management is taught.

What a management is stored by think. Have a great vision. Didn't never talk about consequence. So nobody in the world that is taking responsibility for climate change, but it is a consequence of modernism. It is the industrial revolution of capitalism. The other beneficiaries, you and I can talk to the internet in this way because someone invested that money back the adults, it will be oppressed.

So this consequence, karma as an idea to the west, they would say, if you move the right things, good things will happen. We'll do the right thing. Things will happen. The. There is no certainty. Okay. You move his head to the swim back to the NCI. You must find the Lord you have to do it. Oh, but the cost is that your children are dying.

There's a boss. There's always a cost. Now this is irritating to many people, but at the same is a motivational pick up some I'll get . 'cause granddaddy is going to

So the Indian creators in the old days, when it gets word reading communities with all the reasons that they would never say it a little bit, I would, things will come. This light is great for project management for a short term. Not for long-term left. The baby loves these ideas. What should I do? What should I do them any more than sergeants?

Right-brain look at the big picture strategy, but be strategic with the tactical part, not comes all the things that make us uncomfortable, the breaking of rules and the like, oh, I love that. And

this idea does not exist. The idea of a price to be paid. What we'll find is a different way of explaining the same thing. They'll say, if you follow God's will things will happen, but. So, for example, God will say share your wealth, but humans won't share it. Very nice to say that I believe in Christianity and Islam allow I had 10% of the world at the very least, not that the very most.

So these ideas, difficult ideas, what ideas are difficult. They're not simple. If you go deeper and deeper into the subject. But the point of the book is straight. It's supposed to be, if you don't expose people, we will never understand.

[00:26:22] Anant Goenka: Absolutely. I absolutely loved it. And I thought a pretty good job of doing exactly that.

I thought one interesting story that we can maybe talk about, again, going back to the idea of binaries. And one of the reasons I have other very interesting was because I must've made that. I'm embarrassed to say that I honestly, for me in enable ended at Jeffrey Archer, I obviously didn't know this fascinating story.

And I read like, cause maybe I don't want to show the illustration here. I just, we are the first two parents, Adam and Eve produced many children. One of them was Kane who tilled the soil and became the first farmer. Another son was able to herd it animals and became the first Hertzberg Abel made tents, moving from the hair of sheep, goat, and camel for his family to live in both brothers made offerings to God to show gratitude.

Cain was measured. Abel was generous. And so God preferred Abel's offering. Overcame. This made him jealous in, took his brother out into the wilderness and murdered him. That's the first farmer was also the first murderer. Raven appeared and dug its claws into the earth, showing Cain how to bury his dead brother and hide his crime in realized God had seen his crime.

Nothing in the world goes unseen, nothing can be hidden. So the story is beautiful. It's very interesting. I just three paragraphs five paragraphs long. But maybe we just spoke a bit more about that.

[00:27:52] Devdutt Pattnaik: So one of the things that we noticed that, you know, we have seen images of the carbide and it's a stone structure

and the cubicle structure it's made of stone. And it's covered with. And we don't realize the symbolic nature because most people in Islam are very puritanical. They don't like to talk in terms of symbols, as Indians get used to seeing symbols. And we appreciate things through symbols, we understand the very beautifully and the stone represents the word of farm.

What we're farmers do? Farmers had access to stone. They would remove the stones to meet the bar and they were big farms and they would use the stone house. The horseman, the shepherds would have sheep and they will take the bull of the sheep and make them, they obviously would have conflict with each other because the sheep eat the crops of the farm.

So the farmers did not like the pastor no matter who keep walking and then come and attack the, so there was all this tension between Portsmouth and. But the herdsman levels. Also we are collaborating because the animals can produce dung, which can themes as spotlights. And there is this conflict and it's an old conflict in this story.

Cain kills. So the farmer kills. Remember the biblical stories are based on Abraham is a hard smell. The privileged, the horseman, even Jesus is called a shepherd. Lord is my shepherd. Although he's a carpenter technically, but the visual vocabulary is Lord is my shepherd and therefore shepherds and animal really hurts privileged in India.

By the way, the highly agriculture agriculture hurts. And here the Fama is killing the arts. And then the word measure is very measured because we forget in the Mesopotamian where agriculture is the place where the states would value farming and the confession of the land and the first accountant. Can you get the community funds?

So, you know, this little one line can be the cultural and historical information. And we're talking about this tension between these two people. So at one level of a tension between plant based economy and the animal, I'm going to look at the Kaaba. It is talking about. At a big emotion, traditions, Cain, and Abel are gobble and hopping.

So the same story is stored in the Arabic and pusher propitious, but lots of variations even appeared. And that gets Claus . This is not there though. This is coming from Islam. So I have much of the story cause it's mighty, right? I'm not telling the story from a Christian point of view or from Islamic point of view.

I am an Indian was the story that I want to share it with my audience in the Trenton, Indian retelling, and indeed exploration and seeing the stories, because they're talking about. What happened with the first man died, the postman dies. He's not dying a natural bit. Second if I put into know, why is this exciting again, it's that idea because that does fight.

And around the world, we have seen

whether this can enable that does fight over. But they can live together. Also an idea what you see in the Mako and they're using a stone house. So the farmer's house is cupboard flop, and therefore there is kind of a reconciliation between brothers. Very powerful in that image. And actually I saw that there is no right interpretation.

It's what the artists can see. And the artist observer observes this and you're like, Ooh, before the war became an unhappy place, it was a fight to find the vacancy. Is that what has been communicated? And I just asked this question and it makes me wonder that we have to think about that and burial rights and Lord sees everything that he thinks nobody can see me and I'm working.

My brother is telling him, but then there's always. So his guard, conscience functions, these are human ideas that we all can connect with. It doesn't have to belong to any child really explained to a child. And I'm telling the story to a child. He's thinking about farming. He talks about Harding. He learns about conflict war.

He learns about how humans can be mean cruel, and there is a hope for reconciliation. These are all things which come from

[00:32:36] Anant Goenka: the point of jealousy, you know, the idea of jealousy or something that, you know, I mean the human emotions. I think what I was talking about that I've read in this book, the human emotions are actually cutting across everything. So that that's something which has nothing to do with. All it is. I mean, that's one thing that we're kind of seeing across the board and, you know, I just found very, very interesting, you know, you mentioned that the concept that my emotion is different from your emotion, but again, not appreciating that, that that's not necessarily a binary.

Right. So you said in the book that the word though, actually the article though is actually a Christian. I deal, which has been important, the English language, and then French

[00:33:14] Devdutt Pattnaik: into English to French. And its religion is really in the Hebrew. And

this definitely article, as an idea, is not found in many cultures, see this idea of binary because when I presented it to the new idea, as I said, I have an idea, you have an idea. And I said, this is blue in color symbol. Uh, immediate reaction is to be coming back.

[00:33:40] Anant Goenka: Yeah, because

[00:33:42] Devdutt Pattnaik: that's the natural instinct.

The action is to,

if I were to say that you don't work, you have a right. Now I will approach the conversation very differently. I will say. Yeah, I see this. And I'm very convinced about a friend of mine. Who's equally smart. Right. Why is he falling a bubble? Now? I'm curious. Binary feasibles is out of the box.

I will understand why he thinks it's Hey, if I believe it's what will happen now, the composition is not hostile. It isn't. It is exploded. Hence Indian exploded vibrate exploding. It wasn't stops explaining. I mean, again, understanding walking judge. Um, understanding, expand the, my knowledge because Ben, I have a genuine one was issued.

Then I might realize maybe you are standing looking east and I'm standing border to the west. And when you stand looking into position, the same thing.

Now my knowledge is. Instead of the binary of which, who is it? I, I have no perspective lighting location, point of view, you and I both are benefited with new ideas to somebody. The vibe is what the colonizers. We have the most, best thing in the world is to argue. We've made some stuff like that is what is gladiator game.

That's where the rule is in bed. We don't have the subscribed to it. And I think that's, you know, be able to go into the, some lot of the board with the Jane and they can lose stuff.

[00:35:40] Anant Goenka: Right. Well, very interesting. I just wanted to bring up the one thought, hopefully this doesn't get too controversial.

Anything that's controversial. As you know, from the last time we spoke, but you are using a us and them, you are doing this, uh, India versus, or India was, am I right in saying that?

[00:35:59] Devdutt Pattnaik: Are you hearing it?

[00:36:04] Anant Goenka: Okay. So I think one thing I picked up in the book is that when any of these monotheistic religions came into India and they did not originate from these ideas and originate from this, and they came from the middle east and when they came into India, they actually assimilated quite easily, very, very easily.

And India obviously welcomed different ideas, different cultures, and different at that time, different, uh, just thought process. I think in your book, you said that in fact there was not much history of conflict until there was this other being interfaith marriage. That's when the conflict.

[00:36:39] Devdutt Pattnaik: Yeah, that would be one area that I don't know where that mentioned that

you see housing get design. India was designed around cost system. Integrity is mentioned.

It's the word, which is used nowadays a lot. I don't know.

as something negative and evil, which it has a negative side, like it has other aspects which allowed me to survive for so many years. So we don't look at the subject scientifically, if I'm a judge, I would like to look at this. I'm just for the scientists, but lawyers in the scientific community. Which will be sort of simple.

We will not share my food and you will not marry my daughter and I was on. So it will mean that you will not steal my livelihood and I will not see your life, the famous story of the buses coming through right there. And he says, if you come here, you will destroy the ecosystem. And what the box is doing is the.

It's spiteful. And what do the that says I will assimilate. I will not practice. And this a new idea be what does a new idea? It's a very practical, I've not used that story. I should have used the story somewhere in the book, but it's because it was a more

Maybe I should include this in a second, but this idea is very important, but how do you handle a new idea to deliver the hostility or view and basic? And it depends on how the do I really need. When the milk will be displaced or will the speech. And that's the conversation that mother needs to have whenever do ideas come together, InDesign to use our, we seem to think the bill, what are we displacing them?

Right. We'll do the generations down the line. It's quite possible that it will face a lot of hostility because of the economic success that their path it's possible a hundred years. But by this. So what happens is the original. And they formed communities of their own. They would sort of loopy, right? I would not think of your livelihood.

I, haven't not separate kitchen and my bread enhances your grade. Doesn't take away your data. I'm not a competition. And I Maddie within myself, for example, Carola you'll find most of these men traveling so you have son-in-laws with Jewish son-in-laws workers. Son-in-laws what it was. And this whole idea that, because there was a matrilineal system, not beyond that, the spectrum, I mean, that's broadly, this cost allowed people to engage and there were new communities for me, which followed different boards.

And in India, for example, Bangladesh, let's say a hundred years ago, you went, what is called about your dish today? You would have gone, oh, I need a. Now you will never ask the Mochica dealership because you know that every community has their own box that does not affect you at all, because for you, your relationship with him is that he will make me a plus.

I will not eat with him. I will not steal his livelihood. He will not steal. My daughter will not marry his daughter. His daughter will not marry. And you're fine with it. British come and say no, no, no. Don't look at cost. Look at religion. That's the key difference. So

[00:40:30] Anant Goenka: I wanted to bring up and you came to this pause to kind of make you a different part of the question. Part of the conversation is that you're seeing that the British came and actually created so much emphasis on religion, which was never part of India. Actually, this. Religion was, was a big factor. But what you're saying is that they actually came and accentuated the differences of on religious grounds and not on professional goals.

[00:40:53] Devdutt Pattnaik: Yes. So India had its own system, which was a very different system. There's a lot of violence because we cannot deny the fact that

over time, like all things in the world is destroyed. So. A little blurred from China. And yet the China that'd be known today is the function of what the Mongols did or the bullshit that we know to be in Iran or Russia that we talk about is a functional. So even someone who is violent as to does having our creatives to Russia, it's China has been the way in the same way.

You have the whole bunch of horrible things happening in India. Like two ideas coming with the graduate. Second. Settling down to a new ecosystem, trying to figure out how we live together. One of the unique things that a member of the slum spread it's spread from sin to Spain. What is Spain today for a long time span, begin Muslim than it was at a Catholic place.

The same thing comes to India and seen the before 1947 has all kinds of. Uh, Hindus and Muslim communities living until the British come and say no, no, it has to become part of Pakistan and the whole bunch of Hindus. And these are like, hello? What happened by a BB Hong Kong? Other parts of the world is the classic case.

His family was belonged.

working together. We don't know. I'm just throwing these ideas out there. Religion comes and creates this woman or business, which is not there in the old days. Never know

The whole concept of these borders picking the individual transforming. So we have to understand these ideas, not seeing the one idea is better than the other, but, you know, just dismissing gospel is evil. Religion is evil. I think

class and be able to work with these. And that's what these book is about. Trying to pull like that make people, the regeneration of scholars, the next generation of kids, this book is still in the carpet out, fighting in the parliament or the younger generations with.

[00:43:20] Snigdha Sharma: You were listening to Devdutt Pattnaik on express conversations. If you liked the episode, do share it on your social media handles. And if you have any feedback, please do write to us at podcasts@indianexpress.com.