‘You can’t lock up history, you can’t tie it up in bureaucratic red tape and keep people out’

• But a fun one, isn’t it?

Yes. Fun, creative, and the bottomline is, we are the ones who are going to be giving the jobs.

• How do you say that?

Tourism is not an elitist, having-fun-all-the-time kind of a concept. When tourism increases, and there is a top trickle-down to bottom levels, employment increases. So when we do sustainable development, people around the area, all benefit. It’s a win-win situation for all. And ours is a much more transparent process than say industry or agriculture. For every rupee that we spend, you will see the results much more.

• But you spend so little. If Rs 500 crore is the budget, what you are demanding, it is maybe one-third or one-fourth of Mumbai or Delhi’s.

Yeah, well Rs 500 crore is a beginning, and I’ve asked for another Rs 325 crore. We need that kind of money because the country’s so big and the opportunities are there. And I just hope I get it.

• We have so much to show for and so few tourists. Look at a site like this—the Humayun’s Tomb in Delhi. A World Heritage Site, and yet how many people come and see it? It’s not even properly lit.

No, I wouldn’t say that. In fact Humayun’s Tomb has been lit well. And I’ve had a lot of local residents who’ve told us that they find it so beautiful in the evenings. But Delhi is so seasonal. Tourism is so seasonal, it’s too hot, or it’s muggy or it’s freezing cold. So what we need to do is be creative about time, stretch it, be innovative and if I could open this in the evenings, if I could have people seeing this beautiful place lit up in the nights…

• What do you mean by opening up monuments in the evenings?

People could come in and look at the place. I would have people reading poetry, related to the Humayun’s Tomb—maybe an actor in costumes…

• But you could have demonstrations, environmentalists of all kinds, religious groups…Heritage in India is such a political issue.

(Laughing) You are scaring me.

• This is the reality.

Heritage is not for a handful of people to sit and decide that they are the gods of this place. Heritage is for every citizen who lives around this place, every Indian who has a right to know and see his heritage or her heritage. So it’s not for a handful of pessimists who think that people are going to come and start crawling all over the Humayun’s Tomb, writing all over the place.

• And basically you don’t want to lock up all such places.

You can’t. You can’t lock up history, you can’t tie it up in bureaucratic red tape. And you can’t allow it to lie there and not be seen by the children or the citizens of this country, and those who come from other countries to precisely do that.

• For example, the Taj, which is supposed to be so beautiful at night but is barred for visitors at the time.

I think it’s a concept of how we think. We need to change our mindset. Look world over, what do people do about monuments? Do they tie them up or should we cover it with a tarpaulin and lock it up?

• We were in Turkey recently, and they open Sultan Ahmed square for tourist parties, conventions, dinners…In almost all parts of the world, heritage is now used to…

To attract people.

• No, to also create a social life, to create fun around the place.

I mean, one thing we must understand—a) We have to learn to educate our people, we have to tell them. Once people take that pride and that ownership, that this is mine, and that I want my children to be able to see it and my children’s children to be able to see it, I am confident that then maybe…And b) We must learn to open up and interact with people and we must bring people in to see. And it’s not that if you lock it up, nothing happens. Do you think it will be preserved like that? It needs constant care.

And when we say we open it up, we don’t want people swarming all over the place. I don’t want that. But yes, if it’s open, people can sit here on lawns and walk around these elegant fountains and waterways.

• And then you can also teach people decorum, manners…

Everything—civic awareness is not the responsibility of only tourism.

• Because there are two things that Indian monuments are known for. The stink, because there are no toilets, and defaced walls—so and so loves so and so; so and so was here.

That baffles me. That really baffles me. I mean who cares if Vineet loves Preet, or whatever, you know, which is written all over the walls?

• All Indians do it. I went to Perspolis in Iran and I found in one corner on a wall, two Indians had been there, and they loved each other.

Well that awareness will only come when you open up. When you give them ownership, when you educate people about it, when you make it a matter of national pride.

• Why don’t you ask the media and the industry to be partners? In this, many of us for example, will give free space for a campaign.

All right. I’m taking you up on that offer straight away.

• Educating and sensitising the people to…

No, we have already said it in the media in the past. In the last few weeks, and we’re discussing it in the ministry, that it has to be a cohesive, collective whole. We are going to make little films also, so that we show it at every theatre, to talk about how we romanticise our history and we should not ruin it.

• Also on how to treat foreign tourists. Their clothes are tugged at, they are chased…

Yes, yes. That also is part of lack of awareness. If we told our people, one tourist comes, it’s a win-win situation for you, hundred tourists come, it’s a win-win for all. And they’ll only come if you don’t do this.

• And maybe, maybe if your tourist arrivals were from what is allegedly 2.8 million, although I suspect it’s…

No, no, that’s after September 11 that you saw the dip. But the figures are higher.

• But even the highest figure was 2.8 million, which includes all kinds of people. But suppose it really goes up four times, then maybe, a tourist is not such a curiosity.

It’s not just about getting a foreign tourist! You’re not looking at the domestic tourist sector, where we have huge numbers. There’s a shift in the mindset where people don’t buy jewellery, land. People save and travel, people want to see the world. Telecommunication has improved. You will see Greece in your living room, and there’s that curiosity: ‘I want to go’. And then credit cards. They have given us a complete turnaround, where credit cards say ‘Travel now, pay later’. And that’s a huge incentive…The era of tourism has come.

• Still, our planes carry too few, our airports can handle too few, we have too few hotel rooms.

I’ll tell you something. If you look at tourism, this ministry was not given the due importance that it should have been. Virtually in the First, Second, Third Plan, it’s not even mentioned. There was no budget allocated. It is only now, and the Congress—and we are fortunate that Mrs Sonia Gandhi has a personal interest, and the Prime Minister, who I had a long chat with, is a clever man. He knows the potential of tourism in terms of sustainable development.

• If I can say this to you with a straight face…No country has learnt to look after its heritage, its tourism industry as well as Italy.

Well, so we have lessons to learn.

• You have lessons to learn (laughing)…

That’s nasty! But why not? Why not, with the kind of heritage that Italy has and the way they showcase it? You walk through Florence, and you never want to go back.

• Or a little town like Siena. You can just sit in the square and…

Padua—and you don’t want to go back. You don’t want to leave.

• On the other hand, you come to a tourist site in India, and can’t even go back with a T-shirt.

That, I agree. We haven’t built up on our tourism souvenirs. We haven’t looked at revenue generation on that front. But that’s a thing of the past, because if you’ve been up to date with what I’ve been announcing—because this has micro-linkages and all self-help groups are getting technology upgrading and learning how to make what they make, but elegantly. We’re getting NIFT (National Institute of Fashion Technology) involved, we are getting the National Institute of Design…

• Tell me a little more about this 2,000-item plan of yours.

That’s only the initial outlay…Because I want a bank of things with me, so that I can keep rotating the stuff and all this will fly off the shelves. And then in a month, three months’ time, you will again find new stuff. And all this is going to be available only with Incredible India.

• The campaign.

So it’s a brand. See, this is the first time India has branded herself. We earlier didn’t do it.

• But for that you will also have to give credit to your predecessor.

Oh, governance is a continuous process. And it’s natural intelligence that you use when you want to go into market share. It’s good business initiatives. So Incredible India is a brand name. We want people to look at Incredible India. But to drive this, you need an ambassador.

• And that’s you.

(Pumps fist, laughing).

• The other problem with Indian tourism is that people come to our monuments, hotels and return. Nothing goes to the local people.

The worst are those charters coming to Goa, lying on the beach and going back.

• But those are $20-a-day tourists.

Yes, those are the terrifying ones. We have place for them too, in a country our size, but…

• Going back to how we treat our monuments, it was Bernard Levin I think who said that ‘Taj Mahal is too serious a monument to be left to Indians’.

(Laughing) Well, hands off! That’s what I say!

• And we almost proved him right.

Yeah well, that story, that’s another story. The issue is that—and I will need the media in this—that you need to get involved, educate people, that we need to show people to care for this as not just a tourism itinerary but as part of our national character.

• But has your government been less than imaginative in splitting tourism and culture, that too in a country like India, where tourism is mostly heritage?

I don’t want to…At least it’s with the same state (both Choudhary and Reddy are from Andhra Pradesh), look at it that way. There are pluses to that.

• We are not looking at heritage in Hyderabad.

No, but you have Andhra looking after all the country. So there is some solace in that. But I mean it doesn’t matter which ministry is with whom. What is important is that all of us collectively think. Now when you ask me questions on tourism, have you spoken to the Railways and asked them that why is it that an agent can’t do online bookings for a railway seat? Have you spoken to Civil Aviation? At least Civil Aviation has made the right kind of noises and are identifying and opening up the skies.

• For 11 years we’ve all heard Civil Aviation make all the right noises…

And not do anything about it…

• But your ministry is nothing without good civil aviation. How do you get tourists into India? How do you get them out?

My ministry is nothing without MEA. I need MEA, I need Home…

• For visas…

I need Home for tourist security. I need Railways to help me transport tourists to areas where we don’t have aeroplanes. I need Human Resource Development to give me capacity-building. I need Rural Development for my rural tourism. I need Medical and Health for my health tourism. So in short, tourism is integrated.

• But Civil Aviation is key. If God forbid, you started getting 10 million passengers next year, where will you get them, house them?

Housing you don’t have to worry. There are many creative ways—you know, at one time, land was sold at such huge premiums that the only things that could come up were five-star hotels. But today you have people who want three-star, two-star, paying-guest accommodation, service apartments, and this is where we need to be taking creative initiatives.

• You know you’ve made the most announcements for any minister with the least amount of money. What are the five things that you will do?

Well…then I think I shouldn’t talk about it and I should do it. And we can do a review of it six months down the line or eight months down the line.

• So tell us the five we will review.

You will review a sustained Incredible India campaign all over the world, to make India the world destination, which is what I said.

• With private partnerships.

With private initiatives, yes. I need the money, I need the help, I need the network, which I can’t do alone.

• I think your predecessor’s formula was matching funds.

Yes. So that is private partnerships and initiatives, and you must have it. Because then there is a lot more ownership shown there and a lot more care is taken, and I think we will reach a lot further. I think so. And not only in building, but also in maintenance and care, we can do with private initiatives. And I’m thrilled to notice that a lot of people have been showing interest.

• And for you P and R are not bad words. Private participation and reforms?

It’s not about bad words or good words. That’s the way of the world today. That’s the kind of trend. We talk to NGOs and government because we want partnerships too.

• Because you are a bit of a union leader yourself.

Oh God! You’ve been digging into all my skeletons, have you (laughing)?

• You can’t be saying and doing one thing on one side, and professing on the other.

No, no, no, no…but what we are saying is that if you are sustainable and if you are break even, and if you are able to do it yourself, please go ahead and do it. If you can’t, then we have to look at initiatives, because that is the way the world is. It’s opening up, you have lot more participation and, guess what, sometimes we get good ideas too.

• So, all the very best to you. You have a big job to do and Rs 500 crore is much too little for it. I’m sure money, goodwill will come in as you get going.

So then you should pump for that, saying that we should be getting more money. But don’t forget that in our country, there are other priorities too. So when I ask, I have to ask realistically.