• Hello and welcome to this special edition of Walk the Talk. My guest today is, well, there are many ways to describe him — ageless angry young man of Mumbai, cartoonist, and the Lion in Winter. so let me ask Balasaheb Thackeray which one does he prefer. Call me a tiger. • A tiger for all seasons? All seasons, yes. There is no season. When I met Narendra Modi, I said here is a Gujarat lion. He liked it, enjoyed it. • Considering that not many people say good things about him. When there was some problem in the BJP (after the Gujarat riots) and every one was hammering on the Ahmedabad riots — no one was talking about Godhra — and everyone was demanding Modi must go. I was the only one to have asked Modi what he wanted to do. He said, “Yes Balasaheb, I am still thinking.” I said, “No, do anything but do not quit.” I told BJP, “If Modi goes, Gujarat goes.” • Where would Gujarat go? Did you mean politically. Today, they are actually ruling in Gujarat. They had, how many states at that time? Now all the states are with Congress. It could have been Gujarat also. • You mean the BJP would have lost? Of course. Definitely. • So did Mr Advani listen to you? He must have listened to me because Modi is still there. and doing well, going very fast. • But remember, Atalji had gone to Gujarat and talked about Raj Dharma. There was something to that talk also. There was an issue of Raj Dharma in what happened in Gujarat, wasn’t there? Raj Dharma? Huh! What’s Raj Dharma? There is no such thing anywhere in the country. There is only one dharma, Muslim dharma. Nothing else. • When Modi was the chief minister, he had to make sure that every citizen under his rule was safe. That’s Raj Dharm. He failed in that. Do you agree? What mistake has Modi made? Can you tell me? When you are attacked, you have to retaliate, you can’t keep quiet. Who started the riots first there in Ahmedabad? Who attacked whom? First came the Godhra incident, that was also equally cruel, ugly. Then came Ahmedabad. People then retaliated. • Are you saying that Muslims started the riots in Ahmedabad? Yes, certainly. • Not many people believe that. There are Hindu groups which have a different view on Godhra. They were all kar sevaks in the train. They had nothing to do with politics. They were coming back from Ayodhya and they were attacked. • And you think it is legitimate for people to retaliate like this and the state to look the other way? Where is the question of legitimacy in this? They were all people, and people have feelings. • Mobs and people are okay, but we are talking about the state and the chief minister. What’s a mob? When people come together.that’s a mob. • But it is the responsibility of the state to stop mob fury. Gandhi was assassinated in 1948 by Godse. It happened in Delhi, but there were reactions not only in Maharashtra but also in Calcutta. What had all those Brahmins done (in other pasts of the country)? For one Brahmin (Godse), you blame all the Brahmins. The same way, what happened in Godhra had a fallout in other parts. • So, are you saying that what happened in Gujarat was OK or will you at least accept that it was something that should not have happened? I am not a Gandhian. What is violence or non-violence? You choose non-violence if it suits you, you take the fullest advantage of it. It is politics. • Will you elaborate? I did not understand it. What did you not understand? • That when it suits you, you take the fullest advantage of it. Yes, to save your face. • Are you saying that Gandhi did that? No. Gandhi was Gandhi. We are now all disciples or. • But why do you say you are not a Gandhian? Today, what’s going on is all Gandhigiri, it’s not out of any love of Gandhi. Rest assured, there are no real followers of Gandhi left in India. • But what’s your disagreement with Gandhi? Going to that samadhi of Gandhi or Nehru or Indira Gandhi . it’s all theatre. yeh saab natak hai. What’s here (pats his heart)? There is nothing here. It’s all a show. There are no principles left, nowhere. Not even in the government, the Congress government. • But why do you say you are not a Gandhian? Do you have some disagreements with Gandhi? Yes, I do. • Tell us about them. To understand me, you have to go back to 1948, or even before that. Have you ever thought of Godse’s action, why he decided to kill? He got annoyed, upset, very upset. Even after giving a chunk of our land to Muslims, you were giving Rs 55 crore to them. Godse thought that if this old man lives any longer then he will ruin the country. • And you think Godse was right in thinking so? You have to think. Wasn’t he? • I don’t think he was right. When the British were about to give India freedom, Churchill said, “Don’t give freedom to that naked fakir, he will ruin the country.” And that’s what has happened. We are seeing the fruit of that mistake today. • I don’t exactly remember the Churchill quote. he had indeed called Gandhi a naked fakir, and then later said that don’t give freedom to India. but let’s go back to the Godse business. The majority of the people in India believe that what Godse did was very wrong, that he was a murderer. There are always two views. • But give us your view on that, your nuanced view. I am annoyed because they allowed Partition. That Gandhi is gone. But even today, we have a Gandhi — Sonia Gandhi. For everything you have to visit Delhi. Gandhi remains in the form of Sonia Gandhi today. Everyone had to go and pay tribute to Gandhi. if you watch Attenborough’s movie Gandhi, it shows Gandhi wanted Jinnah to become the prime minister. But Nehru wanted to be the PM. So Gandhi had no say. Once Jinaah realised that he would not be allowed to rule, that the Hindus will not allow him that, he demanded a Muslim nation. Of course, the British were there to play their own game. • But do you then agree with Godse’s belief that if Gandhi had lived longer — 10 more years — he would have done harm to India? Who knows? As he had done with one action — paying Rs 55 crore to Pakistan. It all depends on one’s temperament — which way one leans, this way or that. • As a non-Gandhian, do you think many of his actions harmed India? OK, I am not a Gandhian, but why did the Congress not listen to his advice that after India achieved freedom the party should disband itself? They are they still enjoying the fruit of (his work, freedom). There is a huge gap between what is said and what is done, and that gap is more important. People talk about generation gap, but there is no generation gap here. • We will talk about generation gap in politics. See, I am aloof from all the dirty things in politics. I don’t want any power or position. Even if you offer me Pandit Nehru’s seat, that of the prime minister, I will not accept it. Not even the president’s. What’s there for me? The way they rule this country, there is no firmness. There are no remedies in the country. Take farmer’s suicide, jawans dying on the front. • I am still fascinated by your saying that you are not a Gandhian because today Gandhi has become very popular. There was this film Lage Raho Munnabhai and people think Gandhigiri is the right thing to do. I think there was a newspaper survey, which showed that 47 per cent of Indians say their main icon is Gandhi. So Mahatma Gandhi today is beating Amitabh Bachchan and Sachin Tendulkar! Sometimes you love a person, admire a person, respect a person like anything. as it is in my case. I don’t know why people love me, admire me. • They also fear you. Well, I don’t object to that. I welcome that fear. • And why should they fear you? That you should ask them. When they meet me they say, “Oh, such a wonderful man.” They never think he is (I am) an arrogant man. (They think) I am a simple man. After meeting me, they carry that impression. • But not everybody can meet you personally. That’s the impression (of fear) outside, created by the media. And it’s good for me. • How? I like it. • The impression of being a bad guy? Yes. The thing is, if a dog comes to you and lifts its leg and. • . and pees, to put it simply. Yes. What’s the point if a dog is not scared of you, what point there is in being a human being? • Are you then suggesting that those who fear you are like dogs? No. It was a parallel. People tell me that I am feared, and I say if it is there (the fear), it is all right. Sometimes, fear also helps you a lot. • In our scriptures, they say bhaya bin hoy na preet (unless people fear you, they don’t love you). Yes. • Is that the logic? It can be a beginning. • So a love affair can begin with fear? It depends on your fiancée. In the beginning it’s all very soft. Then the engagement takes place and you start showing your claws, and then. • . and then you start beating him or her up? No beating etc. • Balasaheb, tell me what do you prefer — to be loved or to be feared? Depends upon the other person’s nature. • But you are a public figure, a leader. If it is restricted to me, I will prefer love. Because if you begin with fear, you can’t develop that into love. • But how do you rationalise your earlier statement that when people fear you, you like that, too? But how can I go on telling everybody “Don’t fear me”. • But you also rule with fear. Who? • You and the Shiv Sena. I am a follower of the great Shivaji Maharaj. You may call him a dictator, but he was not a dictator. He was a benevolent dictator. Now tell me, what hold our governments have on the people? This government, too. There is no hold — neither love nor fear. • You see nothing wrong with dictatorship if it is benevolent? No. But it has to be benevolent dictatorship. Why I am where I am? The mobs need leadership. • And the essence of leadership has to have an element of dictatorship? I said do not use the world dictator, it’s benevolent dictator. • But some of the dictators you have expressed admiration for were not benevolent dictators. Hitler, for example. I will give you a small example from Shivaji Maharaj. He arrested his own mama after the latter refused to vacate territory, even after repeated requests by Shivaji. • Mamas have had a rough time in Indian mythology, like Kansa and Shakuni. But this is a different case. So I was saying that what Shivaji did was not an act of dictatorship. • By that logic, Saddam also arrested and killed many of his own family. But what do you say about Bush. I am not taking sides here, but every country has its own internal problems. Saddam killed his own people, but what Bush did was kill people from another country. • And you don’t have such a problem with what Saddam was doing in his country, gassing his people? Again, I say he did all that with his own people, it was Iraq’s problem. I don’t know how you missed that information, but Saddam killed mostly army people. They were plotting a coup against them. He got them arrested and ordered them shot dead. • So Saddam was basically putting down a coup? Yes. • And the methods used were justified, you think? I repeat, it depends on the nation you are running, and then you decide on the method — how to run that nation. • So that way, Narendra Modi thought that the best way to run his state after Godhra was the way he ran it after the train burning? See, it happens like this: I am sitting here as the chief of my organisation and there is a spontaneous attack somewhere. What can I do about that? It’s only when I give the go-ahead that it becomes my responsibility. • .so you think Modi did not give the go-ahead? If you are the editor of a newspaper, you are responsible, morally, for what is published in it. It was the same way in Gujarat. • You wrote an editorial recently in Samna praising Saddam Hussein. Yes I did, because I did not like it when Bush attacked Iraq. He had no reason to attack a foreign nation. Suppose tomorrow, Russia attacks America, will you tolerate that? • How does that square with your suspicion of the Muslims? Well, I don’t blame all Muslims, but it is difficult to make out which Muslim loves this country and calls India his own country and which doesn’t. • But don’t you think the vast majority of Muslims here see themselves as citizens of India? There may be some black sheep, but they are there in all communities. Find them then. I am requesting the good Muslims to remove the black sheep from among their people. Come ahead and do that. Whenever there is a riot or some such thing in the country, not a single Muslim comes forward to protest against it. In the border issue between Maharashtra and Karnataka, the Maharashtrian Muslims should speak for the state. • Let me go back to the interesting statement you made about benevolent dictatorship. I will translate that into Marathi: Shiv Shahi. • OK, Shiv Shahi. Saddam’s method of governance or Hitler’s was not Shiv Shahi. But you have expressed admiration for both at different times. Hitler did very cruel and ugly things. But he was an artist, I love him (for that). He had the power to carry the whole nation, the mob with him. You have to think what magic he had. He was a miracle. • People say that about you also, what magic and miracle you show. Maybe. Instead of criticising me, think about that part also. • Is that all you admire about Hitler or were there more qualities in him that you admire? There were three major powers in the around the time World War II was fought - Britain, USSR and America. Hitler inspired the his people against them. So did Churchill. • So you admire the inspirational aspect of the leadership? Is there anything more to it? What was good about him? The killing of Jews was wrong. But the good part about Hitler was that he was an artist. He was a daredevil. He had good qualities and bad. I may also have good qualities and bad ones. • You don’t regret having praised Hitler, because it became a controversy when you did so? See, you can condemn me but you must know why you are condemning me. I condemn Hitler because of the massacre of Jews. But I love artists, painters. • So you love Hitler as a fellow artist? Yes. That’s one of the factors. • But artists can go wrong, as he did, in politics at least? You know it when you enter that field. • Many people think you too are an artist who went wrong. You were a cartoonist who became kind of a dada of Bombay. Yes, of Mumbai. Yes. • I once wrote an article in which I likened you and the Shiv Sena to the mafia. You called me up and said you were not affected by that description. So, are you amused or flattered when one calls you a mafiosi? Neither. If I were a mafiosi, you would not have dared to write a thing like that about me. But you have the freedom to criticise me and you are exercising that right now. That’s not the sign of the mafia. • But films have been made on you. there’s a movie called Sarkar. Did you watch it? Yes, I have watched it. • What do you think? I think it is a good film. It liked it. • Did you see some comparisons? Yes. I watched it with the director, Ramu.Gopal, Ram Gopal Sharma (Varma). • . as you have picked up your wine glass, let me wish you a happy 80th birthday. Do you drink wine in the afternoon everyday? Yes. and in the evening, after nine. • You have it as wine or medicine? Actually medicine. I have constipation. The doctor advised me to drink red wine, but I don’t like the taste of it. I like white. • But red wine is good for the heart. But I don’t have a heart, I am a heartless person. So white is good for me. • So you liked the movie Sarkar. There were some details in it about you. Yes, I don’t know where he got them from. • I think there are many informers in your house itself. Yes, there are, there are. • How did you react to Sarkar when you saw it? Were you amused or flattered or angry? No, I was not flattered by the picture. They have shown a household’s story. The main thing is that Sarkar is shown collecting funds, what you call khandini. Or hafta. I thought the story is in fact based on the Thackeray gharana. There are similarities. But I don’t know who gave them all those details. • So you think it is authentic in some way? It is. • But they are all bad guys. Does it bother you that all the touches of authenticity have been fitted into a set of bad guys? The man in the film, Sarkar, is different. He snatches money from others. They show him keeping money in suitcases. I am not like that. If the movie shows that, these are all follies (of the director). • Has Amitabh Bachchan play that role well? Yes. Many of his films may be flops, but can you forget his acting? He has copied my body language well. how he does all that I don’t know. • So as a film enthusiast, you are not complaining about the film? I am indifferent. If I oppose, they get more publicity. The cinema people want controversy. That way, they get publicity without spending money on advertisement. • But you don’t get angry or resentful, because he was a mafiosi in the movie? I ignore. It is better to ignore than give them free publicity. • You talked about the ghar ka bhedi who informed the makers of Sarkar about your private habits, and you say that the movie has got many of them right. So do you feel betrayed? No. They want credit for proximity to me, but that’s just like that. (There is not much meaning to it.) • Apart from gesturing with his raised arm and the like, what else do you think did the director or Bachchan get right? They showed me asking my assistants to collect money for me. I never did that in my life. That was not right in the film. Till date, I have never given party tickets because someone gave me money. Nor has Uddhav, or Raj. • Even for your Rajya Sabha seats, you haven’t taken money? No. (Continued tomorrow)
