‘What will change the system: when the little man refuses to pay a bribe’

Tahiliani discussed the NGO’s latest corruption index—where India is ranked 71st—and India’s never-ending struggle against political corruption and partonage with RITU SARIN.

» The latest Transparency International report lists India in the bottom rung of the corruption index with a rating of 2.7 on a scale of 10. How accurate is this data?

CORRUPTION can never be accurately measured since corruption takes place behind the scenes. Nobody is going to own up. These are perceptions that are based on 12 surveys done by reliable world bodies over a period of three years. In the international community today everybody, including the World Bank, recognises this as a benchmark.

In 1999, we also published the first bribe payers index, and another one followed in 2002.

» Where did India figure in this index?

IT was one of our members who pointed out that it was very well to condemn the developing world as being the most corrupt, but the bribe-giver was just as culpable.

So we mooted the idea of another index for countries that bribe the most. India does not figure in that because we are not an exporting country. That survey looks at 20 big exporting countries like China, Korea, Britain and USA. This is what I call grand larceny.

In India, we find out about this only when the information has been published by the country that’s paid the money. In the case of Bofors, it was Swedish radio.

Transparency International likes to distinguish between this larceny and petty corruption which we call facilitation payments and abound in India.

» India’s ranking has been falling with each survey, despite several corruption cases being exposed. Is the rot only getting deeper?

IN 1999, we had an integrity score of 2.9 and this came down to 2.8 and 2.7 in 2001 and 2002. And let me tell you, there’s a basic difference between corruption in India and other countries. In several developed countries, corruption exists at the highest level.

The common citizen is not affected to the same degree. Here, the common citizen pays to get even birth and death certificates. I suspect this pattern also exists in Africa and other poor countries like Bangladesh. But a country like China has been improving in its ratings.

» What about political corruption? Hasn’t this been the problem with successive regimes?

MY personal judgement is, yes. Barring some countries in Africa, we are the most corrupt politically. Successive governments have been corrupt and even the party with the difference has shown absolutely no difference.

Otherwise, why would we have the petrol pump scandal, the land allotment scandal and the coffin scandal and so many more we know nothing about yet. In fact, like in other countries, we need a law to protect the whistle blower. In India, whistle blowers are likely to be eliminated.

» Have officials like former chief vigilance commissioner N Vittal made any difference?

THE poor fellow could only proceed on the basis of the evidence before him. When he has the evidence and recommends action, they don’t take action. What he has done hasn’t made much of an impact, but it has sensitised people. The eventual battle will be fought by the people.

» Vittal, for example, complained that the Government took no action on his report on arms deals.

THEY will take no action. Let me give you one more example. As head of Transparency International, I gave the Defence ministry details of how to use an integrity pact. This is a detailed document which all bidders are required to sign and stipulate that there will be no bribes.

I brought the father of this concept, a German named Michael Wiehen to India, and he met Arun Singh, the then Defence Secretary and other officials. Nothing happened thereafter. The Government also legalised the function of defence agents but not a single one has registered.

The rules are so ridiculous. The Government is a past master at beating the objective of its own exercise. I have no doubt that corruption in defence deals is continuing as before.

» Several pieces of legislation to fight corruption and make the system smore transparent have not been enacted. Why?

SIMPLY because we are our own worst enemies. The Law Commission recommended that when a bureaucrat is caught for corruption, his assets should first be confiscated. That Bill is gathering dust for three years. The biggest gainers are our rulers. But we are challenging the Bill on disclosures of politicians in the Supreme Court. Take the Lok Pal Bill, it was first introduced in 1967 but it’s gathering dust. I hope it is passed in my lifetime. Simply put, there’s an absolute lack of political will.

» What about the recent exposes by The Indian Express on the allotment of petrol pumps and land? Aren’t these examples of political patronage and cronyism?

THIS is what corruption is. Corruption is personal gain at public expense. It is largesse at public expense to near and dear ones. Once you’ve filled your own pockets, you like to fill the pockets of your family and members of your own political party. We have mastered the art of doing this.

The silver lining is that people are getting sensitised. The only thing that will eventually change things drastically is that little man who refuses to pay a bribe.