‘We must improve storage for grains. How else do you implement Food Act?’

Dhiraj Nayyar: There is much talk of a second Green Revolution. What do we need to do now?

The term is being used by the PM and the president mentioned it too. What they are trying to say is that we should once again make a similar revolutionary progress of doubling the yield. Green Revolution has come to be known as a production improvement through yield per hectare,not through area expansion. We did increase production between 1947 and 1967 largely by area expansion. The Green Revolution is being talked about in terms of two eco-systems. One is eastern India,where Bihar,Jharkhand and parts of Bengal are areas well-fed by our river system. The groundwater table there is high. So we can easily double production in that region. The other is rain-fed areas. The Green Revolution was criticised in the early 1970s. One group of social scientists felt that it will create more disparities between small farmers and large farmers because the new technologies are scale-neutral—that means,even if I buy a small plot,I can still raise a good crop and increase production—but it is not resource-neutral: you ought to have money to buy the seeds,fertilisers,irrigation pumps,etc. So they thought the Green Revolution would create a gap between farmers. Also,because of the use of technology,they thought it would put farmers out of work. The second group of criticism came from economists after the petroleum prices began going up. They said that oil is a non-renewable resource and was being exploited. Fertilisers,urea,etc.,are all petroleum derivatives. Hence,when petrol prices go up,the input cost goes up in agriculture. We had told the government that if the small farmers were to benefit,they must get credit and seeds. The Sikh farmers in Punjab are really the heroes of the Green Revolution. There,we saw no difference between small and large farmers. In 1968,I wrote an article for the Illustrated Weekly on the Punjab wheat miracle. I coined a term ‘evergreen revolution’—I said if you become too greedy and start overexploiting the land or use a lot of pesticides,the consequences would be adverse. People were becoming aware of the ecological consequences of the over-exploitation of the soil. I said we need evergreen revolution—that means,an increase in productivity in perpetuity without associated ecological harms.

Maneesh Chhibber: Is it not true that most agricultural research and development has stopped. They are not producing high-yielding varieties?

You can’t always expect that kind of quantum jump. You will have incremental jumps. Today,Punjab Agricultural University and other universities are concentrating more on stability of production than higher production. That is why people are looking to bio-technology for getting new genes into the system. But we don’t have a regulatory mechanism for bio-technology—now the government is trying to bring in a national regulatory body for bio-technology.

Coomi Kapoor: Some people feel that the real handicap to increasing our agricultural production is the depletion of national resources. Would you agree?

There are four major ingredients: land is shrinking and that too good,prime farmland. I had recommended a national policy for farmers that clearly says that prime farmland must be conserved for farming. Also,there was no balanced fertilisation. Now the government has changed the policy to one of nutrient-based subsidies and not product-based subsidies,hoping that this will help farmers apply balanced fertilisation. Water is another big problem. Ground water is being over-exploited. In the first five year plan,10 per cent of irrigation came from groundwater. Today,60 per cent is coming from groundwater. Due to over-exploitation,the water table is going down. In West Bengal,as a result of the water table going down,arsenic is coming up. The fourth is climate. All four are in distress. In India,agriculture is the largest private sector enterprise with 60 per cent of the population engaged in agriculture and land is individually owned. You must develop technologies for the small farmers that gives them a reasonable income. There is hardly any agricultural insurance. Under such conditions,farmers must have a reasonable price for their output.

Seema Chishti: There has been considerable debate on Bt cotton and Bt brinjal. Why is there so much cynicism and scepticism now as compared to the 60s?

They say Green Revolution is a product of the public sector while the ‘gene revolution’ is a product of the private sector. That is an over simplification. In the 1960s,there was a tremendous shortage of food in the country. When my older brother got married,there was rationing in Madras and only 30 banana leaves could be laid out and there were policemen counting those! In those days,there was pressure on farmers,their incomes were very low. When the farmers found an opportunity to increase their income,they took to technology. This technology did not involve taking the gene from another plant. In the case of modern bio-technology,say brinjal,the crystal gene comes from the soil bacterium. It is toxic to pests. Before this technology came,people used to spray Bt like pesticide. Now you have incorporated it in the plant so that when the insect comes to bite it,it will be toxic. That is the problem and people are afraid that this toxin may also be toxic to humans. So you ought to have greater human safety. When I gave my report on bio-technology,I mentioned that we must strengthen the government’s ability to test. We hope they will introduce a new regulatory authority. However,authority alone without instruments will not be effective. When technology came to India,there were three issues. First,people were afraid that big MNCs would control it and that the future of food security would be in the hands of a few companies. Secondly,who would have access to it because this technology would be controlled by intellectual property rights,patenting,etc. The third is the question of human health safety,environment safety,bio-diversity. You have to preserve your bio-diversity,but do not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Rakesh Sinha: Why is it that the problem of storage was never addressed in India?

Only in India do we have this problem of storage. Even when the Green Revolution started,one of the first things I said as director of the PUSA Institute was that we must concentrate on post-harvest technology. We already have production technology but then we have to store the produce,process it. At PUSA,we developed the PUSA Bin that can store 3 to 4 tonnes that every farmer can have. Then when I was agriculture and rural development secretary,the first thing I did was to develop the rural godown for perishable commodities. The Food Corporation of India is getting so much wheat because most farmers and their families have no holding capacity and have to sell immediately. That is why futures market and futures trading do not interest them. We need a national grid on storage.

Coomi Kapoor: How good are the storage facilities used by the Food Corporation of India (FCI)?

FCI has some good storage godowns but a large percentage of the stock is lying in gunny bags,with a tarpaulin on top. The problem is the same with horticulture too. So as soon as possible—after the Commonwealth Games—we must concentrate on creating storage infrastructure! How do you implement the Food Security Act unless you give farmers the power of storage?

P Vaidyanathan Iyer: In the National Advisory Council (NAC),how are you trying to strike a balance between the need for universalisation of food security and not keeping the funding plan open-ended?

Universalisation means all people have access. If it is a universal public distribution system,one argument is that there can be no corruption or misappropriation. But giving everybody at the same price means enormous amounts of money. There are three aspects to food security: availability of food in the market,access to food that depends on purchasing power,and absorption of food in the body that is a function of clean drinking water,sanitation,hygiene and primary health care,immunisation. You get food security for your body only if all three are available. The FSA concentrates on economic access to food. The availability of food depends on farmers,on their produce. Absorption depends on different programmes like the Rajiv Gandhi drinking water programme etc. So the issue is complex and requires a synergy among the three. The FSA cannot deal with everything. Then,there is the question of how much to give and at what price. The Congress manifesto as well as the UPA president’s announcement was of 25 kg at Rs.3. Immediately,there was a furore. So they thought of 35 kg at Rs 3. Today,it Rs 3 for rice and Rs 2 for wheat. But NAC is still working on it. It is one thing to give a right and another to implement it. We must revive farmer enthusiasm for farming. The second Green Revolution cannot come because the farmers’ enthusiasm is missing. A sample survey showed that 45 per cent of farmers want to quit farming.

N P Singh: There is a belief,particularly in Punjab,that farmer suicides are linked to shrinking land holdings. This is being linked to the Green Revolution that significantly increased the cost of inputs that they can no longer afford.

A small farm is not a handicap. A distinction must be made between a small farm and a small farmer. The latter is a euphemism for a person who has no access to credit,inputs,etc. So if you overcome the problems of small farmer,the small farm will become more productive. We must concentrate on giving power and equity,what I call is the ‘small farm management revolution’. It is management technology,not genetic technology. If we don’t do this,there will be serious trouble because 80 per cent of our farms are small land holdings. You must develop a watershed community.

Nistula Hebbar: The Planning Commission has made a suggestion that instead of universal PDS,grains meant for Above Poverty Line card holders should be differently priced,linking it to the high minimum support prices being given to farmers and reflecting input costs. Has the NAC taken a view on this?

Nothing is finalised. How much money does Finance Minister Pranab Mukherjee need to reserve? It involves two aspects of productivity: how much can we produce? You can’t build a food security system on anything other than home grown food. Sometimes you might have to import but home-grown food must be the anchor of the food security system.

Coomi Kapoor: In the Right to Food Bill,there is no mention of the ICDS but mothers and children are the most vulnerable in terms of malnutrition.

Child nutrition is a very serious problem in our country. More than 45 per cent are supposed to be malnourished but there is no bill so far. Now that there is RTE (Right to Education),we can expand our noon meal programme and make it much more holistic. Hopefully,in the next six to nine months,you may have a draft bill that will represent the consensus. Some people would like to see pulses along with rice for every family but where will it come from?

Dhiraj Nayyar: There is a theory that if big retail is allowed direct contact with the farmers,food prices would come down.

Villagers are quite happy so long as it is a fair relationship. But if you exploit them,thinking villagers are illiterate,that will not help. The government is the largest purchaser—that is also a contract,a social contract. People know about a minimum support price. Similarly,the private sector in some respects stimulates the public sector in terms of prices of commodities and assurance of purchase. The government has been buying whatever is produced and has kept their part of the bargain. The private sector must learn some things from the public sector in terms of fairness and assurance of purchase. In Kerala,many people grow vanilla to earn lakhs but when everybody began growing vanilla,the prices crashed. The same thing happened with cocoa. Cocoa cultivation became very popular but only Cadbury was buying. Then we requested Verghese Kurien to help out and Amul chocolate started. YSR had a plan to promote cooperative farming in Andhra Pradesh. Cooperatives can be specialised so we require management innovations. We need a good public-private partnership. I often say farming is the largest private sector enterprise.

Transcribed by Ayesha Arvind