‘Stars Become Parodies of Themselves’

Thank you,Shekhar.

This place has had the most talented people in Indian theatre sort of stomping these grounds,including you.

Well,a large number of people after me,I’m happy to say,and I hope it continues,though it is gratifying and alarming at the same time to see that most of the actors you see on television serials are NSD alumni. It’s good that they are earning a living,but it is saddening that not many of them are doing theatre.

What is your biggest takeaway from learning theatre? Because you’ve spanned all media — theatre,TV,films.

I was fortunate to have (Ebrahim) Alkazi saab around. I don’t know if his successors have been as inspiring,or as charismatic,or as hardworking as he was. To me,theatre was fun,because I had done,like everybody else,only school and college plays,and those plays were always an occasion of celebration. Everybody had a lot of fun,and we put on wigs and moustaches and costumes. I hadn’t really come here,thinking of this as a profession. I came here only because I had nothing else to do.

You escaped from school.

College. And I didn’t really want to be an actor,and I didn’t know..

Not from far away,just across the Yamuna.

Aligarh University,I did my graduation from there.

But the acting bug had caught you even in school.

Even in school,by the time I was 14. The first time I went on stage,it was a life-changing moment for me. I was a bad student,so I never got the opportunity to act in school plays. Only the best students got that.

Exactly. They got to play in the school cricket and hockey teams.

Absolutely,they were the captains of the teams,they got the best roles in the plays. I wasn’t even considered for a walk-on part. So I took the initiative myself.

That’s the story of our schools. You have to be the best overall student.

Yes,there weren’t too many alternatives then. IAS officer,medicine,or engineering or Army. And there were these Irish priests who were teaching us.

But the acting bug,I knew,that this is what I wanted to do,I don’t know why. I can indulge in a bit of pop psychology and say that,you know,I was a lonely kid and all that sort of thing. I guess I was,I was not even unpopular,I was unnoticed.

Did your mom or dad ever say,“arey,kya acting kartey ho saara din”?

Yes,but I never did it saara din,because I used to hide and do it. I would lock the door of my room,a couple of times my mom caught me,and she feared for my sanity,because I was standing in front of a mirror,reciting dialogue which she didn’t understand. And they never came to see my work in school.

What was the dialogue?

‘I’m a Jew,’ that one. I loved it. ‘Hath not a Jew eyes?’,which I used to keep reciting to myself. ‘Is that a dagger I see before me?’,‘To be or not to be’,I have known these speeches since I was 14 years old. So,anyway,one day the itch got so bad,that I got together with a few friends,and we did a few scenes from The Merchant of Venice,and I played Shylock,of course. My inspiration was Mr Geoffrey Kendal of Shakespeareana,whom I had seen playing the role innumerable times.

Many people today will not connect with Kendal,Shashi Kapoor’s father-in-law.

He had contributed hugely to awareness about theatre in our country. It’s ironic,considering he’s not Indian. It’s doubly ironic,that I received the Sangeet Natak Akademi Award along with him. I think they should have recognised his contribution long ago. Anyway,at least they did. I consider him the greatest actor I’ve ever seen,till today. And it’s not just childhood idol worship,because I saw him performing later,he acted in a small role in Junoon. The priest who I kill. And I met him and I talked to him,and I saw his work on the stage when he was 75. And I realised that his greatness lies in the fact that he is a servant of the text. He’s never trying to show off how good an actor he is. That’s an ability taken for granted,and that was a great lesson,that an actor’s job is not to show off his acting,but to convey something.

I remember reading one of your interviews,in which you said that sometimes,you wish to show off as well. Where have you done that? In cinema?

Yeah,in cinema. I think in my early performances,there was a lot of showing off. In Junoon,there was a lot of showing off. Like how well I can act,look at me,look at me. I was young and somewhat immature,and felt that my performance was more important than the movie. I was making a completely different movie in my head while the film was being shot. Shyam (Benegal) was somewhat dissatisfied with it,and when I saw the film later,I understood why. My performance in Junoon was nothing but a repeat of my Manthan performance,with a sword by my side instead of a laathi,and there was a great deal of showing off in that.

I’m surprised you say so,because that is a role that was praised. But critics don’t know…

It’s not that critics don’t know. What is there in my performance in Junoon is a lot of genuine,felt emotion,and that is something which transmits itself. I meet people all the time who tell me they love the ‘Hum Dilli haar gaye hain’ dialogue from the film. It was said with a lot of feeling,that bit. But if you study the performance with a magnifying glass,instead of being carried away by its theatrical effectiveness,you’ll find it lacking.

You know,it’s surprising that the first role you played was Shylock,and you valued that,and you remember that fondly. Do you remember the dialogue,Shylock?

Absolutely. ‘To bait fish withal,if it would feed nothing else,it would feed my revenge. He hath disgraced me and mocked me,half a million,laughed at my losses,mocked at my gains,scorned my nation,thwarted my bargains,cooled my friends,and heated mine enemies. And what is his reason? I am a Jew. Hath not a Jew eyes? Hath not a Jew hands,organs,dimensions,affections,senses, passions? Fed with the same food,hurt by the same weapons,subject to the same diseases,warmed and cooled by the same winters and summers,as a Christian is?’

When I first spoke this on the stage,with all my schoolmates who had never looked at me twice before,watching me,it was a most heady feeling. I felt accepted at last,I felt liked. People were laughing and clapping and cheering me on while I was speaking this. And somehow,I knew the right things to do. I think I had watched so many plays so avidly,most of all Mr Kendal. And the plays we did at the school were also pretty good.

So where else did you show off?

Well,I showed off a lot in the plays at school,and college,and in the movies. I would say,most dreadfully in a film called Kanhaiyaa,which you probably have never even heard of. It was a remake of Oliver Twist,in which I played Fagin. It was a very over-the-top silly film,and it was a very over-the-top silly performance. I was convinced that everybody would be floored by my versatility,and I took that role only to show off how versatile I could be. I’m a young man,but I can play old.

You went to Bombay after your school performances,at a very young age…

Yeah,I was 16 then. I packed my bags one day,and sold my watch and my bicycle,and took off for Bombay,convinced that I could make it. I was so cocky about myself.

What happened when you went there?

I had a friend in Bombay who sheltered me for a few days,and then said hey,come on,how long do you intend to stay? So I stayed in a very interesting place,in Madanpura,near Bombay Central Station. It was a factory where we were allowed to sleep at night on the floor. And we had to roll up our bedding and push it into a pigeon hole and push off by 8:30,whether we had anywhere to go or not. At 10 rupees a month. So I stayed in this place,walked around looking for work,and I met a guy who got me a job as an extra. I have appeared as an extra in two movies. One is Aman,and the other is Hema Malini’s first film,Sapno ka Saudagar. So when I met her finally,when we were acting opposite each other,I told her about that role,though it got cut by Raj Kapoor. The other role,in Aman,survives.

What exactly did you do in those films?

I’m walking behind a dead body,in the last scene.

How much did you get paid for it?

Seven rupees,50 paise. For the other one,I got paid Rs 12 a day. That was for two days.

So life had already begun to change for the better.

Yes,and I was just 16. And I never felt..

Child labour.

Yeah,but….

But today you would be defined as child labour.

I would be defined as child labour. But I imagine I looked pretty grown up. I used to carry a beard and all at that time,and I was convinced that it was just a matter of time. And the amazing thing was that never for a second did I feel awed by the city of Bombay. I never felt uncomfortable,I never missed home.

Who was the first star you interacted with?

The first star I ever interacted with was… (thinks) who? Oh yes,Mr Raj Kapoor! I was a student at drama school. I was called to All India Radio. I was doing a few plays on Yuva Vani,and they said would you like to interview Mr Raj Kapoor,and I said yeah,of course,you don’t have to ask,and I will get paid for it on top of that.

35 rupees.

35 rupees,yeah,it was a fortune. So we went to All India Radio,and sat there and Raj saab arrived,and he talked us under the table. He wouldn’t let us get a word in. Not that we had many searching questions to ask him,but we started off with something like,well RK Productions should be proud of its work,but why do you act in so many other bad films,and he launched into this lecture,and that was my first interaction with a star,when I realised how much they have to say.

And with Rajesh Khanna? Who was a rising new star,and who became a phenomenon.

I too had applied for the Filmfare United Producers All India Talent Contest (which Khanna won). They didn’t even reply to my letter. But Mr Rajesh Khanna,we’ve never worked together,and I’ve never met him either. I’ve watched his career with a great deal of interest though.

And fascination,dismay,combination of both,one after the other?

Envy to start with,because they hadn’t called me at least to check out how well I could act. Then,there was a sneaking admiration for a while,when he became so phenomenally successful,and in a film like Aradhana,where he actually performed quite well. Or a film like Khamoshi,I felt very,very envious of this guy. Then,naturally disappointment,because his fade-out was very steep,and very quick.

And self-inflicted,if I may say so.

Yes. And I don’t know how a star of that luminosity can prevent the syndrome which afflicts them at some stage or the other,which is that they become parodies of themselves,and it has happened to them all. I really don’t know why that happens,because I’ve not been in that position.

People have praised your acting talent,and your many other qualities,but have people ever told you,how wonderfully you speak,stars becoming parodies of themselves,because they all do,they all fall in love with their own images. Well,not all,but most of them with themselves.

Yeah,and as long as those mannerisms are authentic,they are charming but then they become…

Because they talk,and start walking and talking like that in their real lives. I’ve seen that happen with TV actors,not just stars.

Yeah,it’s very heady,the whole business of success as an actor.

I think,on that note,we conclude the first part of our conversation,and as I said,we’ll keep flitting back and forth,so we’ll continue that in the next one as well.

That’s no problem.

Transcribed by Nimisha Jaiswal. For the full transcript,log on to www.indianexpress.com