Hello and welcome to Walk the Talk. I am Shekhar Gupta at the Australian High Commission in New Delhi and my guest this week a very distinguished Australian and believe it or not,he is not even a sportsman or a cricketer. Peter Varghese,the new High Commissioner of Australia to India. Welcome to Walk the Talk PV: Thank you SG: And good day to choose when you have this exhibition on sort of pictures exhibiting your multiculturalism PV: Thats a wonderful coincidence actually because there is a great way of demonstrating that contemporary Australia has a very multicultural society and the question of who is an Australian would involve an answer that will just bring in every part of the world SG: Maybe take a whole foolscap sheet PV: Yes,absolutely SG: But you know you dont need an exhibition because you are a very good example of that. Parents born in Kerala,you born in Kenya,brought up in Australia. You are a wonderful example of multiculturalism PV: Thats true. And my experience is not at all unusual for contemporary Australia that we have people from all over the world. You know something like 40 per cent of Australians have either born themselves overseas or one of their parents have been born overseas. So even though we are a small country in population terms,I think,the multicultural story in Australia is quite an exciting one when you look at the way,really in the space of a generation,not longer than that,we have developed into what is a very pluralist,multicultural but distinctively Australian community SG: Ive noted you say Australian,not Australian PV: Well the Australian accent is going to vary SG: Accents are varying all over the world now as populations get globalised PV: Not a regional variation,but an individual variation in Australia SG: There are surveys done on nationalities,ascribing certain characteristics to them,the famous roper survey. Very interesting that for so many decades now they have characterized the Australians as people in the category called fun-loving. That speaks for the great sporting tradition as well PV: Thats certainly one element in the Australian character,but I think Australia is also,you know,a country that puts a lot of premium on hard work,and even though our international reputation may be for being relatively laid-back ,I think Australia these days is a country and economy which is moving at quite a fast pace SG: I dont think anybody has ever seen an Australian sportsman who would look laid back in any game PV: We hope not because that competitive spirit in Australia is very strong SG: Sport is an indicator of national character and I dont think anybody takes chances with the Australians. PV: Well we have a wonderful tradition of sporting competition between India and Australia SG: Oh absolutely and you beat us a bit too often. PV: Well you are doing pretty well at the moment SG: So we need to restore that balance .but its a great rivalry now. For a long time nobody could beat Australia. And then India sort of leveled it. PV: Yeah. All these things always go in cycles. You can never afford to be complacent or too despondent,I think. SG: But you know,the timing of your appointment. Everybody has been quick to draw the linkages,linkages in India as well as the Australian media. And linkage being the current state of our relationship because of the attacks on students,etc PV: Yes SG: Do you see a special responsibility or burden or concern as you come in PV: Well I think the timing of my appointment is really,completely coincidental because this is a decision that has been in the making for a very long time. And well before,we ran into any of these difficulties over students. So I dont think anyone should read anything particular into the fact that I am coming to India to take up this position at this time. I mean,Ive been a professional diplomat for over 30 years. And for me this job represents a wonderful professional challenge. Because this is a relationship which is already moving quickly,growing fast but it has huge potential and there are very few big relationships with the growth issue left in them if you are a professional diplomat SG: Right. All the others are in close control now. PV: Well all the others are well developed relations and I mean,obviously they are also moving but the room for moving with India is bigger than any other of the big relationships SG: But there is a special,there has to be a particular appreciation of the situation now because Australia has got sort of difficult press in India over the past few months PV: We have. We have. I mean I dont think you can go through this sort of negative coverage that we have had in the Indian media over the student issue and not take a bit of a hit SG: Right PV: And one of the things that I want to do while I am here is to explain what is happening in Australia,to explain what we are doing where we see problems,and we do recognize where there are problems SG: Whats your understanding of whats been happening? PV: Well,its actually quite a complicated story because it has a law enforcement dimension,it has an educational institution dimension,and it has almost a sociological dimension. Weve seen a very rapid rise in the number of Indian students coming to Australia and of course,we welcome them as we welcome all our international students. Many of the Indian students who SG: Its also a big export for Australia education PV: It is,it is. But you know education is one of those things which I dont think you can view in a very narrow perspective. Sure,its a service export for Australia and its an important part of our economy. But the thing about education is that its much more than that. and it is absolutely crucial in building relationships because when you leave your country and go to another country to study,you are not just engaging in some sort of transaction,you are learning about another country,you are experiencing something different. And you are contributing to the country to which you have gone and one of the things that I keep saying is that the educational relationship is a reciprocal relationship,its not a one-way relationship. You know I had the privilege of serving in Malaysia,as my last position as high commissioner and there I saw the way in which an educational relationship can create real connections between two communities and also how students who come to Australia can change the perspective of Australians. SG: But some of that unfortunately is not happening vis-à-vis the Indian students in Australia PV: Well there is no reason why it shouldnt happen SG: Yeah PV: And I dont think that we should look upon the Indian student experience as a negative experience in Australia. The great majority of Indian students in Australia,our surveys confirm this,say that they enjoy being in Australia,that they are, appreciative of the way in which they have been welcomed in Australia and that they are having generally a very positive experience. SG: You said that there are three dimensions to the problem PV: Yes. Well,the first dimension is this is an issue of crime in urban areas. And much of the crime is going to be opportunistic and it will depend a little bit on where you are and when you are there. Indian students,many of them are working part-time,often because they have taken out loans and they need to earn money as well as to look after themselves,find accommodation,pay for their food and clothing. So many of them are working late shifts. They,in Melbourne SG: Legally or illegally? PV: No,no legally. Legally. I mean,we allow students to work 20 hours a week,during the holidays they can work for as long as they like SG: I see PV: and so,we are not,not suggesting that they are working illegally. But typically many of them will live in low-cost neighbourhoods because they cant afford to live in more expensive neighbourhoods SG: Or in rough neighbourhoods PV: So in some ways they put themselves at double the risk because theyre working shift hours,theyre commuting in the early hours of the morning to neighbourhoods which have probably a higher crime rate than they were living in affluent,middle class suburbs. So,they,as a result I think have been victims of opportunistic crime. Now,I am not saying that in Australia there havent been any cases where some of these attacks had a racial element to it. Sg: But not all of them have a racial element PV: Not all of them and not even close to the majority of them would have. I think the number of attacks which had driven by a beggeted racial attitude would be very much the minority and something that I think most Australians would find apparent SG: What is the element of racism in Australian society PV: Well,you know,I often say that for a country to go from where Australia was say in the 50s to where it is today could not be possible if racism was embedded in the society. You cannot absorb that number of people from different countries,different cultures,different colours and remain a socially cohesive and united society if people had a fundamentally racist attitude. So I think the Australian story is actually an example of how at the individual level Australians have been remarkably willing to accept someone for who they are SG: But have the economic stresses of the past few years caused a problem PV: Well the economic stresses I think SG: Drought,downturn PV: well,I think times of economic stress will always accentuate some difficulties but if they do it is very much at the margins. And I dont think there is any evidence that economic stress is causing fundamental intolerance to develop in Australia. And Australia has been very fortunate with economy. I mean,we have had SG: you benefited from the commodity boom PV: We have benefited from the commodity boom. We had 16 straight years of economic growth SG: We heard about crane drivers getting 70,000 Australian dollars a year PV: Wow. Its true. The resource boom,particulary in Western Australia and Queensland attracted a lot of labour to those parts. And quite highly paid SG: You said there is a law and order enforcement aspect to it and what are the other two aspects PV: Well the other aspect is,we have had some cases where students have come from India to Australia and enrolled in educational institutions which turned out to be not properly prepared and equipped to teach the courses. And that has caused problems SG: So they were fly by night PV: Some of them were operators that werent capable of delivering what they promised SG: So are you moving against them? PV: We certainly are. We are introducing legislation requiring institutions to re-register under tougher criteria and if they dont meet those criteria they would be struck off the list SG: Frankly some of this is also a function of the brutal undersupply in India PV: Sure SG: Because in India now the yearning for higher education is so desperate and because India doesnt give enough capacity,people just go overseas and then maybe sometimes they dont choose very carefully PV: Well it could be that. it could be that people are being given incorrect information,like to believe that they will get something when they get there,they dont. but your point about the incapacities is very relevant because from where I sit,the possibility to work in partnership with India on education issues is really quite large because this is a very big structural issue for India. And India recognizes there is an education deficit which needs to be filled and government here is working very hard to do that. so I think there is a natural fit between where India wants to get to and Australia has to offer SG: So do you see India and Australia working together in this? PV: Absolutely,absolutely SG: is that part of your agenda as well? PV: Its very much part of my agenda but I believe it is also part of the Indian governments agenda and certainly SG: Indian government is desperate because now people want education and they will be angry if they dont get it PV; And I think we can do this in several ways. We can continue to offer education in Australia to Indian students. But I think there is also scope now for us to look at doing something here in India,preferably in partnership with an Indian partner SG: Helping build Indian institutions one reason you get sharp reactions to attack on Indian students is that people also know there is a certain degree of anger about the fact that they are being forced to go just because there is no capacity available. Then you pay money,you beg,steal and borrow, and then you hear about some kid getting thrashed. So a lot of the families start worrying PV: Yes,yes. I fully understand the worry that parents would have particularly if what they are seeing in the media back home is some suggestion that the whole Australian community has gone on an anti-indian rampage. I mean,any parent,I am a parent,if your kids are a long way away you are going to worry and I think its important to get across the message that Australia is by and large a very safe country. No country has zero crime,regrettably. But by any measure,I think,the crime rates in Australia are low SG: And you said the third aspect was sociological PV: Well the third aspect relates more to the way in which the education and migration systems seem to have been blurred. And we have had some cases where those coming to Australia ostensibly to study appear to be really there in order to aquire a visa and permanent residency. And this is relevant because often they will be doing even more of the sort of shift work SG: So the main purpose is to work and the educational affiliation is a smoke screen PV: Is a smoke screen. And we are taking steps to prevent that from happening. SG: Will you sort of make visas tougher? PV: Well we are not going to make visas tougher,but we are going to make sure that a visa thats given for education is used for education. So,we are a country of migration,the integrity of our immigration system is very important to us,we have a global non-discriminatroy point system and we are determined to ensure that that system continues to operate SG: Tell me,you as somebody of Indian origin,from your childhood,in your years as student,as a professional did anything ever happen that made you feel like you were an outsider in Australia? Did you face any racism of any kind? PV: My overall experience in Australia has been very positive. I came to Australia when I was eight years old. so I did virtually all of my primary education in Australia,all of my secondary,all of my university education in Australia. And my experience was that I found Australians willing to accept me for who I was SG: Right PV: did I ever encounter a hostile reaction or an incidence of racism? Sure. But I could probably count on one hand in the 40 plus years that I have been in Australia,way that has happened. And I think it is the strength of Australia that individuals SG: And have you seen it get better or worse over the decades PV: Well,I think if anything the objective evidence suggests its got better because Australians have been dealing easily with much larger numbers of people coming into the country from different backgrounds. I mean when we came to Australia in 1964 it was very unusual to see anyone of an Asian background in the streets SG: And now there are whole Asian streets PV: Well,now you walk down the street,and it is such a kaleidoscope of faces SG: You were heading the office of national assessment,like our national security council,and you spoke to the prime minister directly. What did the prime minister tell you about India,where did he place India in the big picture from Australias point of view,particularly when you were coming in here? PV: Well he is a huge enthusiast about India and my instructions are very simple. He wants to take India to the frontline of our diplomatic relations. He is someone who sees India as a country which will exert increasing influence regionally and globally. He sees Indias economic rise as one of the pivotal developments of this century and he recognizes that indias strength as a pluralist democracy is something which will bring it closer to Australia. So he is very keen on building up this relationship SG: Thereve been many hiccups of late. Attacks on student is one thing which plays badly in the media PV: Yes SG: But there is also the decision to go back on the decision to sell uranium to India when you had a change of government there? PV: Yes SG: There was also that Mohd Hanif case PV: Yes SG: Indian doctor who was arrested and now theres been this ADB vote. So it looks like a series of setbacks,in a relationship which was completely non-controversial,except sometimes on the field of cricket PV: Well those controversies on the cricket field can be quite important SG: Well some of the TV channels here actually linked attacks on students to that. so that became particularly nasty press PV: I mean,I wouldnt put it as a series of setbacks and I think youve got to look at each of these issues in their own right and on their own merits. And sometimes not all of the facts are right when they are being discussed. I mean,uranium I recognize is an issue between India and Australia. But you know this is an Australian policy that goes back a very long way. It was started in fact by Malcom Fraser. He was the libro prime minister of Australia. And it is been the consistent policy of successive Australian governments SG: Previous government had decided to make it shift PV: Mr Howard made an exception to long standing Australian policy and the Rudd government is returning to what has been long standing Australian policy and this was something which was in the Labour party platform at the last election and its an issue which SG: They could not have gone back on it PV: Well,its an issue that attracts very strong views in Australia and as I say its not a new policy and I think its very important to understand that this is not a policy that is explicitly directed at India. This is all about Australias position vis-à-vis the non-proliferation treaty SG: Well,the nuclear deal was a policy explicitly directed at India by the NSG and the rest,there was an exception made by 46 countries and there was an expectation that you know the follow ups also will be on the same basis,expectation in this country PV: Well,Australia was an active supporter of lifting the ban in the NSG because we recognized that this was an issue that was important to India and we recognized the broader significance of the US-India nuclear agreement. So,from my point of view,we wanted to do what we could do to ensure that that global restriction was lifted SG: Right PV: But it was never part of the deal when we lifted,when we agreed to lift the restrictions on the NSG,that we would be locked into selling uranium to India. I mean,the two are quite separate. One,is a national position SG: and one is a party position PV: No,no. one is a national position about Australian sales to India. The other is about the way in which the international community engages India SG: Because you know it will not be seen like that in India. It will be seen as you know we were getting the dividend that was logically ours after the nuclear deal and a change of government in Australia has gone back on that PV: Well SG: Thats a statement of fact PV: Yeah,I think the Indian government appreciated the position Australia took on the NSG. They appreciated the fact that we did not oppose lifting the ban and indeed they appreciated the fact that we actively supported lifting the ban. So lets take that as a positive,in its own right. SG: And the vote at the ADB? PV: Well,here again,I think SG: Because Chinese objected to loans being given to projects in Arunachal Pradesh because they claimed it was disputed territory and there was a vote and you know it looks like the western world was divided too because in some ways you see Australia is a western power,not an eastern power PV: Right,well here again I think it is important to understand what the facts of the case were. Australia fully supported the inclusion of Arunachal Pradesh in the India country strategy for the ADB. So there can be no question of what Australias position is on whether or not Arunachal Pradesh projects should be included in the ADBs programme. SG: right PV: And thats the key point. This is only an issue about how the ADB should publicly characterize the India country strategy. And the position we took there was to support what the ADB management wanted which was to issue a press statement on the India country strategy which was silent on Arunachal Pradesh. And the reason the ADB management wanted to take that position was that they didnt want the ADB as an institution getting involved in a political border issue between India and china. So Australia wasnt casting a vote in favour of china and against India,Australia was casting a vote to support the ADBs leadership position SG: Let me ask you a direct question PV: Sure SG: Does government of Australia have a position on the status of Arunachal Pradesh as a part of India PV: Look,with most territorial disputes Australias position is to urge peaceful resolution between the two contesting parties and that is the position of most countries to disputes relating to the borders of other countries. So we neither support nor oppose the Indian position on the status of Arunachal Pradesh. SG: Because there is a feeling that Australia,particularly the Rudd government,feels overawed by China,there is a mood of quick capitulation to China PV: Well,I think that would be to completely misread the way in which Australia and China interact. And I dont think Australia is an unique position here. we have a very strong economic relationship with China,we seek to engage China in a range of issues SG: But you have some of the same problems that we have,that we keep hearing about,you recently rejected Chinese getting 50 per cent share holding in one of your mining companies,one of your regulators have now talked about keeping China limited to 15 per cent equity in your resource companies. So you see the same anxieties here PV: We didnt actually reject that bid,the bid in a sense fell apart SG: Your Rio Tinto people have been picked up for espionage no less PV; Well,thats right. But you know whats the issue here,the issue here for all of us is how do we constructively engage with China and how do we ensure that Chinas rise will not be destabilizing and I think the strategy that we all have which is that we engage China,we bring them into regional and international institutions,we encourage China to play by the rules,and we give China the room to have a voice in regional and international forum. I think what we are doing there is precisely what India is doing with China,it is precisely what the United States is doing with China,its what Japan is doing with China,so I think to characterize ours,our position as a capitulation would be quite inaccurate. SG: And where do Australia and India go? We had an exercise together last year,Malabar PV: Yes,yes SG: We are doing well on trade PV: We are doing very well on trade,I think it is our fastest growing SG: Some part of our relationships on strategy,on trade are doing fine PV: Yes SG: How do we build on that now? PV: Well,I think the fundamentals are doing very well and I think the way we build on that is to keep broadening out those areas of mutual interest that serve each of our country well. I think on the economic front there is a lot that we can do together,particularly on energy security,with coal and natural gas and this is a big,an important issue for India. I think we can do more to promote direct investment by our companies. I think if we can look at the merits of free trade agreement that have SG: Now that India has one with ASEAN PV: ASEAN and we have just about to finish a feasibility study so we hope that will be a positive conclusion I think on the security and strategic side we are both Indian ocean countries,we both have a very strong maritime focus in our strategic thinking. I think as India comes closer to east Asia SG: India has a Look East policy PV: India has a Look East policy and the gravitational pull of your economic interests will take you even further east. I think that will create a common agenda for India and Australia in terms of east Asian regionalism,architecture,confidence building measures. I think multilaterally there is a lot we can do together. SG: well,all I can say is you will have a very fruitful and very exciting tenure here. there wont be one dull moment PV: Well,I am very excited about.. SG: So if I use a cricketing term,I think you are set for a good long innings,may you score a lot of centuries and runs PV: Thank you SG: And enjoy yourself and before someone else tells you Ill tell you what we say about Malayalis in India. There is no corner of the world where you wont find one Malayali. So I think this very good Malayali has found a very good corner PV: Thank you very much. I enjoyed the conversation SG: Thank you. Just the right man at the right time
