‘Those in school and college won’t want to go back to farms. To give them jobs we need industry, investment’

• It has seen a lot of investment go away, actually.

Right from the Sixties and Seventies, a lot of capital has flown out of W. Bengal owing to various reasons and I’m not getting into them. Even in the Eighties, the situation did not improve. Things have not been very conducive for industrial development.

• What your chief minister calls the lost years of W. Bengal.

Actually, investment started gaining momentum after 1991, when the Government of India decided to do away with the licensing regime and said every state should try to have private investment. The then chief minister, Jyoti Basu, adopted policy resolutions inviting both private and foreign direct investment. That’s the time the state government started seeking private investment with full force. But that attempt did not yield the desired result. In 1993-94 there was a recession in the country. As a result, industrial investment didn’t turn up, but from 1997-98 the situation started changing. After 2001 private investors really showed interest. They started coming in and seeing the opportunities. Some successful ventures of that period have also emboldened the confidence of investors, like Haldia Petrochemicals, Mitsubishi.

• And also the confidence of the reformer here, isn’t it?

Also the government’s desire to bring in investments. That’s also an important factor.

• Within your own party structure, reformers like you would have faced a lot of scepticism, isn’t it?

See, it was discussed in the party. We took the decision that, after agrarian development, if we don’t go for industrialisation, the entire process of development will stall. Therefore, this is the time to invite private investment. That’s because the Government of India has also decided not to go for any public-sector investment, particularly in the industrial sector.

• Right, so you have no choice, and you can’t afford to lose out.

Yes.

• So you agree with your CM that this state lost two decades, starting with bad industrial policies etc but also because of gheraoes and bandhs and strikes.

Yes, of course, there’s a lot of debate on this particular issue, of whether gheraos, bandhs, are actually the main reason for industry not coming up. There are also other factors.

• But these are also the reasons.

Yes. But, of course, when industry is becoming sick and workers are going to lose their jobs, they will try their utmost to fight back so that they do not lose their jobs.

• When you took over the new responsibility (as minister) and (ushered in) the new industrial policy, the first term passed more or less peacefully. But in the second term, did you anticipate the kind of trouble you ran into suddenly?

No, actually I didn’t anticipate that. You see, from 2001 onwards, the investment that started coming into W. Bengal was not very large. On average it was Rs 2,000 crore to Rs 2,500 crore annually. And mostly in the medium-scale industry, not very large industry.

• And so little had happened that even a flyover was seen as an investment.

Investment actually started coming in 2004-2005 onwards on a large scale. Industry, large manufacturing industries — they are showing interest in W. Bengal, particularly in certain sectors.

• What you are trying to say is that it’s only when big, visible industries started coming in these protests…

Not only that. It (big industry) requires large tracts of land, which is an important factor. W. Bengal, you see, is a land-scarce state, with high density of population. And W. Bengal has a large tract of land that is fertile — less than one per cent of land is non-agricultural. As a result, when you want to have industry, and large industry that requires large chunks of land, it affects a large section of people, and therefore, there is opposition. I think they have taken this issue and tried to rouse people. Then it becomes a political issue.

• So it started with Singur?

Yes.

• Tell us how it looked from your end when it started in Singur. How did it start? Did you anticipate it?

No, I didn’t anticipate it. During the last few years, the automobile sector is one in which there has been large foreign and Indian investment. We were very keen to bring in some important manufacturing facilities, like automobiles, because it has a cascading effect over small and medium enterprises.

• Also symbolic effect.

Yes, symbolic effect. We started talking with Mr Tata and he was very positive about W. Bengal and he commented that for the small car plant, W. Bengal could be one of the destinations. Then we started negotiating and they agreed to bring in that investment. I thought it was a huge boost for industrial development in W. Bengal. I thought people would welcome it.

• It’s too good a deal to complain about.

Actually, people of the state really welcomed it. But in that particular area, some people — because that constituency belongs to the Opposition, they have a following there — and they started agitating against it.

• Also, the land holdings were very small.

Very small. In W. Bengal, 83 per cent of the land is in the hands of marginal and small farmers. Therefore, if you want to have a large tract of land, a large number of people are affected because they have very small plots. For 1,000 acres, some 12,000-15,000 people may be affected. Therefore, you have to talk to them, convince them. But we should also reckon that a majority of landowners have agreed to this project and have actually come forward. Otherwise it would not have been possible to get that land and start this work. Therefore, I will not say the people of W. Bengal have not welcomed it.

• But were you surprised by the intensity of the protest?

Yes. Actually, the media has a role to play in this, I am sorry to say.

• Always, the media is always to blame.

It was something unfortunate, but it has happened, and we have managed to . . .

• And you see Singur coming on stream now, it’s on schedule.

Yes, it is all on schedule.

• When do you see the first car coming out of there?

By August-September 2008, I think.

• When that happens, do you think it will answer your critics?

I hope so. If you go to Singur, see for yourself what kind of activities are going on there. Nearly 3,000 people are working there, day and night.

• And you are not defensive about what you have done in Singur?

No, no, not at all! I’ve done the right thing. This is one of the important projects of W. Bengal and it has been able to attract more investment into the state during this period.

• You have something to say to the political opposition to Singur?

There is political opposition to Singur, but I don’t like to make any comment because opposition political parties always try to do things. But I think there should be a rationale behind their opposition. Every opposition party says it is not opposed to industrialisation but when you go to industrialise in practice, they are opposing that particular project.

• Because you will need land.

Yes.

• And what’s your view on the intellectual opposition, some of it comes from Left intellectuals, your own fellow travellers? And we haven’t come to Nandigram yet.

Actually, you see, I don’t know why this kind of opposition is coming up because, you know, industrialisation is one of the important areas of development. One might say that there should not be corporate industrialisation per se, but I don’t think in today’s context there is any way other than to invite corporates.

• Because enterprise is corporate today.

Yes, therefore, it may be a subjective exercise, but if you go into the reality, it is not objective to say there should be no corporate industrialisation.

• So where are these Left intellectuals coming from? Is it nostalgia?

It’s very difficult to say, because they have their own theoretical understanding. But what exactly is happening, that is the reality, the ground reality . . . I think there is some kind of misunderstanding on this particular aspect. We are running a state government under the overall purview of the Government of India’s policies and Constitution. But even if you look at countries where there is the absolute rule of communist parties . . . they are going the same way, because multiple form of ownership has now been accepted.

• I noticed one of the books you have written is ‘China Diary’.

I went to China, I have seen it, and that’s why I wrote that book. The reality, therefore, should be taken into account.

• You are saying what you CM says: Learn truth from the facts.

Yes, it’s not only the CM, even Marx said it. All theory comes out of practice.

• It’s interesting, because you said intellectuals have their theoretical knowledge but you have practical experience. So let’s now move from Singur to Nandigram. Did that surprise you or were you mentally prepared for it?

When Singur started in such a fashion, I thought they’ll take up Nandigram also as an issue. Other than that, before that, I didn’t actually think (there would be opposition) because there’s an agreement between the state government and New Calcutta International Development, a consortium of three companies of which Unitech is one. This was signed in July 2006. At that time it was elaborately explained to people what we are going to do. You see, Nandigram is not an isolated thing in that agreement: this is a huge investment in infrastructure.

• But I believe that the initial protest from intellectuals came on a different ground, about the Salim group.

Yes, the initial protest was about Salim, who is close to fascist Suharto. Anyway, I told all those people that if Vietnam can invite U.S. industry for investment after fighting for so many years then what’s wrong (with someone close to Suharto).

• If India can invite Chinese investment — we still have a border dispute with them — so why not a pal of Suharto’s.

Anyway that was the debate, to begin with, but nobody questioned the location. Even the standing committee in the Assembly, headed by Congress leader Sudipto Bandhopadhyay, and the MLAs of all political parties in the committee, they went to Nandigram, they have seen the site, talked to people.

• And do you think it was a good site?

Yes, a good site. That was actually the ideal location. I still think so. And they have also come up with the same conclusion.

• Then what went wrong? How did it go out of control? That too with your party, which has a state like this in its grip. What happened?

Actually, we have not been able to make the people understand what actually a chemical hub means. What is going to happen, how much land is required for this kind of thing . . . There was a campaign that entire blocks, all houses, all people, all religious spaces will have to be taken over, and all people will be evicted, everyone will be thrown out.

• This was a credible alliance of Naxalites, the Muslim right, and the Hindu right.

Yes, everyone joined together. Immediately, we realised, this is most unfortunate, that people are not convinced about the project, that we had failed to convince people. Immediately, the CM announced in a public meeting that as people are not willing to have this project in that area, we are not going to take up that project, we are not going to acquire land. Unfortunately, even after the announcement in February 2007 . . .

• But anger kept building up.

But there is no reason for this anger. They might have a victory rally for this. But what they have tried to do is build a state within a state. They cut the roads, blew up bridges, stopped the functioning of government offices, and evicted people who are supporters of the Left, particularly the CPM. More than 4,000-5,000 people were ousted from their homes.

• But, you know, this may be wrong. Do you agree with the methods taken to get it back?

No, you see, you should also try to understand what the government has done. We have tried to negotiate with the people in a way all of them can go back to their places, development work can begin. All kind of negotiation was done.

• When it didn’t work, was it okay for the party cadres to take things into their own hands?

No, no, not that. Then the police were told to intervene. Police actually intervened, police announced, ‘Please allow us to construct a bridge.’ Then police tried to intervene. Then, you know, the March 14 incident unfortunately occurred. Immediately the high court came out against the police and instituted a CBI inquiry. As a result, there was serious hesitation among police also . . .

• So the party cadres had to do the job that the police forces couldn’t do?

No, not only party cadres. The people there, out of desperation . . .

• But led by CPM cadres.

Of course, the CPM people are victims and will try to go back to their place. This is quite natural.

• All right, that’s an honest enough statement. At least you are not saying that outsiders came and did it, we don’t know who did it.

That’s not my point. My point is, whatever happened in Nandigram shouldn’t have happened. So many dead . . . whether they belong to CPM or . . .

• Are you specifically embarrassed about these cases of rape, for example?

I think the way it has been propagated, the situation is not that in reality. There were some cases. One Sunita Mondal was raped by those people and then she was killed. That instance is there but . . .

• And you are embarrassed about those cases.

Whatever happened in Nandigram shouldn’t have happened. My point is, why has it happened? Has the government not considered their demands? Even after considering their demands, why has the movement continued? Learned people have told the people of the area, ‘Please stop the agitation as you have won the battle.’

• That’s my question. Many of these learned people were your fellow travellers for many decades. What happened? Have you had any communication with them since then or is it just ideological opposition to industry?

That is not exactly the case. You see, there is a section of intellectuals . . .

• Poets, filmmakers, writers.

The major casualty is the rationality behind their activity.

• Can you elaborate on that?

You see, all those people should have told the people of Nandigram, ‘Now you have won the battle, you should start developing the area.’

• But they didn’t. Why?

Rather they (the people living in Nandigram) have been instigated, and they (those who should have told them to stop agitating) started expanding their sphere of influence.

• Is it because they see you as having moved away from the mother ideology, that you have got corrupted by new, liberal thoughts.

I don’t think so. That maybe there, but I don’t know.

• So, in a way, Nandigram became a little sovereign republic. Police failed because of extraneous factors. Finally — I am paraphrasing what you have said — people who were victims of the earlier purge decided to fight their own battles because they were driven out (and they happened to be CPM). So you are saying the same thing that your CM said, which is, ultimately, that people who had blocked Nandigram got paid back in the same coin.

No, I’m not saying in that fashion. If it had not happened, it would have been better. But the state government tried. We thought it would be better to bring in the CRPF, and nobody can say that the CRPF is a partisan force. We talked to the Centre and called for the CRPF.

• The CRPF had problems too.

The CRPF also came in late. If we could have got the CRPF at least a week earlier, when the CM requested it, I think this unfortunate thing would not have happened.

• So tell me, do you still remain determined to industrialise W. Bengal or have you had a setback and you will sit back and wait for some time?

Of course I’m determined. Actually, industrialisation in W. Bengal is going on in full swing. There’s a lot of investment coming up in W. Bengal.

• Are you able to keep Nandigram aside and carry on elsewhere.

Of course. Every movement has its lessons. We have learnt that if we want to build something in rural or backward regions, it’s the people there who matter, and we have to take the people into confidence.

• So you have to convince them.

Yes, we are now trying a consensus-building mechanism. You see these projects coming up . . . Jindals, Balaji, Videocon, Bhushan Steel, all big projects.

• I believe you are still helping them acquire land.

Of course, and everywhere we have been able to build consensus.

• So Nandigram and Singur haven’t weakened your resolve to bring industry and private investment to W. Bengal?

I don’t think so. Rather, the lessons we have learnt are being implemented. We are going to have a very good rehab package so that people can be included in the process of industrialisation. They should not feel they are being deprived.

• You know, very good investors like Infosys have talked of the Nandigram risk.

With regard to Infosys, the land they want is in and around Kolkata, which is quite difficult to get. The cost of land is also high. When you are talking of land prices going up, it also means there is demand. This is good from the investment point of view, because investors are coming and want the land.

• You are saying that apprehensions of there being a Nandigram risk are a bit misplaced.

Yes, slightly misplaced and that will be easily overcome when they see investments coming in.

• Where does the chemical hub go now? Are you focused on Nayachar?

Yes, we have selected that site.

• And it’s definitely going to happen there?

I think so.

• If we talk a year from now, say halfway through the term of this government, what are we going to be able to see in your state?

Actually, I think there will be good amount of employment and investment in W. Bengal.

• Do we see some visible plants, units, investment?

Of course. If you come to Singur next year, you’ll see a completely new scenario there. If you go to Howrah, you’ll see new activities, in Rajaghat there’s lot of investment in the IT sector. In Vardhman, Purulia, Bakudia . . .

• Will you then invite the Left intellectual critics for a walk around these places?

Yes, of course, if I have that opportunity.

• But would you have a message for them. Is there something that you would say to them because they are angry with you right now?

The only message I’d like to give them is that they should realise the situation in our state, the rate of unemployment, the limitations of agricultural growth.

• So you have to industrialise and for that you need land.

Yes, we have to. Lots of people are in schools and colleges, and they would not want to go back to agriculture. I have to employ them somewhere and this is possible only through industrialisation, and today we have no other option but to invite private investment. Our main aim is to develop the manufacturing sector, because the services sector, the IT sector employ people of slightly upper strata.

• And you see yourself convincing them and the people of W. Bengal of this need.

I think so. The people of W. Bengal are quiet convinced. I am confident about it.

• So the next Walk the Talk will be in the completed Singur plant, hopefully.

Of course. There’ll be other completed plants I’ll be able to show you.

• I’m glad you say that with so much pride and so much confidence. All the very best. I think what India needs most of all is grassroots politicians, whatever the ideology, who are pragmatic and who are looking at the future.