‘Arjun Singh’s biggest wish is that Congress gets wiped out from the country and he becomes PM’

• But it used to be crowded earlier. The last eight-nine years have been a sort of political exile.

Not exile, it is fate. As a student of astrology, I think it is to do with the stars. After every dark night, there is a golden sunrise and every sunrise is followed by night. This is the cycle of nature and we are all a part of it.

• You have won many political cases. Do you think this political exile is ending?

I wouldn’t say it is coming to an end. Like before, I did my bit for culture, the same speed and progress is going to be back.

• Did you do your bit for culture and also politics?

Politics is also a part of culture, politics is not separate.

• Shouldn’t politics be separate from religion?

I am not a supporter of this thought.

• This is true in Hinduism. In Sikhism, they speak of Miri and Piri, in Islam too and also in Christianity, but not in Hinduism.

No, not in Hinduism. Vishwamitra, Vashisht and other great dharmacharyas have guided politics and showed us the way. Communalism should be separate from politics, not religion. Religion should definitely act as a check towards politics. Communalism should not prevail.

• People have sought votes in the name of communalism, there were riots, people were killed.

India is a country where five religions have been born, five philosophies took birth here, so how can one be favoured?

• You have faith in astrology. Was it that you were going through a phase where the stars were not in your favour? Is it changing now?

Phases come and phases go, changes take place all the time.

• In Hindu philosophy, are actions more important than stars? What happened to you, was it fate or was it an outcome of your actions?

Life is not only based on actions. It comprises of actions, faith, hope etc. There are people who have served the nation honestly but are behind bars, and those who have done nothing for the country are in positions of power.

• Can you give a few examples?

There are self-help groups and other organisations working for the welfare of the people.

• Who are those who have done nothing but are in positions of power?

Those involved in communal and caste politics. You can see where politics is going.

• One, I believe, has taken advice from you, some BJP leader?

One or many, I have had contact with them all. You ask me who, I will tell you.

• What about Uma Bharati?

Yes, I have had contact with her now and in the past.

• What do you think of her and her political future?

I believe politically she will be on the rise in two years.

• Is this belief based on astrology or politics?

The basis of everything I am saying is astrology.

• How do you regard her as leader, what are her strong points?

I don’t want to comment on her drawbacks. She is a dedicated selfless leader. She has the ability to attract the masses.

• She has come up with a new idea: you can take sanyas and be in active politics.

In ancient times, many sadhus and sanyasis have done this. You can think of her as a part of our tradition.

• If she is involved in politics, where is the sanyas?

Yes, one should keep a distance.

• Then what kind of sanyas is this? There are many people like this in politics.

One should take sanyas to work selflessly and stay away from power. I am not in favour of power. I am interested in politics, but I have not sought power and never will.

• You have not been in power but very close to it. There was a time when nothing happened without consulting you.

No, nothing like that but I was close to people in power.

• Amongst politicians close to you, name a few who were most interesting and memorable.

I was close to Narasimha Rao, Chandrashekhar. I have been in touch with Atalji.

• Have you ever met him after he became the PM?

I have not and never wanted to.

• You have not named Rajiv Gandhi?

Yes, I had good relations with Rajiv Gandhi. I have had good relations with Indiraji and Jayprakash Narayan.

• When did you first come in contact with them?

I first met Indiraji in 1972. I was introduced to her by Yashpal Kapoor.

• What did you talk about? Tell us, it has been 40 years now.

Ethics don’t permit me to tell you. It is a secret. But we discussed the nation.

• When did you meet Rajiv Gandhi?

I met him in 1988.

• What were the circumstances?

Generally we were discussing politics.

• In 1988?

No, I met him several times before that but after 1988 we were close.

• 1988, when he was facing a crisis, when Bofors was a big issue, Ayodhya was about to happen. Did he ask for help?

No, I was interested in Ayodhya and told him so. This was when Buta Singh was getting shilyanas done. It was in this context that I met him.

• What was your role during ’88-’89, when Bofors was at its peak?

I had no role but my relations with Rajiv were always good.

• Then the St Kitts issue came up.

That allegation was made against him and me by V P Singhji.

• Why?

Rajiv Gandhi’s Bofors and St Kitts issues were started by him. We were unfortunate that from there, the political trend of allegations started.

• You were embroiled in many controversies before St Kitts and Bofors. Your name even came up in connection with the Rajiv Gandhi assassination. Were you in any way involved with any of these?

I have had no role in any. My name was brought up because I was close to Narasimha Rao. His political opponent, Arjun Singh, tried to drag my name into the Rajiv Gandhi assassination case. All those who have filed affidavits in the Jain Commission are close to Arjun Singh. One is a member of the Delhi Vidhan Sabha, then there is Ramesh Dalal from Haryana. But as I have been cleared in other cases, my name will be cleared in these two also.

• What is your enmity with Arjun Singh?

Nothing, he has met me several times and is a staunch believer in tantra, mantra and astrology.

• Is he really? These days, he is secular. He has undertaken detoxification.

Mauni Baba of Ujjain is his guru. In 1993, when I had gone for Kumbh Mela, his guru had built a throne saying Arjun Singh would come and sit on it as Prime Minister.

• Who is Mauni Baba?

He was Arjun Singh’s guru.

• Was he also a great sadhu?

Yes, he was a great tantrik.

• But Arjun Singh, even Harkishan Singh Surjeet says, is fighting communal forces.

Who says so? Why would he have so many sacred threads tied to him if he does not believe in occult?

• If he believes in all this, how can he make an enemy of you? You could turn him into a mouse.

I have never misused my powers. I only pray that he recognises the truth.

• You are not convinced that he is secular — trying to clean up text-books, remove RSS appointees and clean up Hindutva?

Not at all. He is practising politics of self-interest, his biggest wish is that Congress gets wiped out from the country and he becomes PM.

• So during Narasimha Rao’s time you must have practiced a lot of tantra, mantra to ensure that Arjun Singh did not succeed in his ambition.

No, nothing like that. Not then, not now.

• What was your relationship with Narasimha Rao?

I spent my childhood in Hyderabad. When I was a student, he was the education minister of Andhra Pradesh. Even back then, he supported Hindi and introduced the three-language formula.

• So you have known him since then? What was your relationship with him when he was PM?

Yes, I was close to him and I believe he gave the Indian economy a new direction which we still follow.

• People say he was superstitious and a great believer in yagya, tantra and religious rituals?

No, let somebody show some proof.

• They say you did it for him?

No, I only do yagyas for self-realisation and for public welfare.

• Like you, he has also been in a political exile for the last nine years.

You call it political exile, I call it time for meditation. And now I am emerging from it.

• But not for him?

He is also a scholar. He must also be studying something.

• Do the people who used to come to you for favours nine years ago, still come to you or ignore you? Are you bitter about this?

Some have stayed in touch, some have not. I am not bothered.

• So you have spent most of the last nine years in this ashram?

No, I have travelled a lot.

• You have had varied experiences, you have even spent time in jail.

Yes, that is the birthplace of my Lord.

• Tell us something about the time you spent in jail.

I spent a lot of time meditating and studying.

• Tell us a few memories of that time, anything you can recall.

I spent most of the time in meditation and going to court.

• I recall there was not much sympathy for you because you were surrounded by scandals. In fact, people took delight in the fact that even the powerful could be jailed.

Not at all. Even at that time, I was getting hundreds of letters saying what was happening was wrong and they wanted me to speak up. But I think silence is beneficial and I spent my time maintaining my silence.

• It was believed that you were silent because you were scared.

No, nothing like that.

• The other thing people said was that, if he is so powerful why has he not found a solution for his own problems?

Have you ever seen a river drinking its own water, a tree eating its own fruit? This knowledge is not for myself but for the good of mankind.

• But you have not been able to help mankind by being in jail and being caught up in problems.

No, I did it even from there.

• It was said that your political support completely disappeared.

I have never asked for political support from anyone. I have not asked for political support for myself, unlike other people. I never sought security cover like many dharmacharyas do.

• You never sought such security?

God is the greatest protector and I have not wanted any personal favours from anyone. I only got involved in matters that could have proved harmful for the country. I was involved with Ram Janmabhoomi when Chandrashekhar and Narasimha Rao were the PMs. I have always been involved with problems which could harm the country.

• In what position are those politicians who were your well-wishers?

I have never counted them.

• Satish Sharma, Sushil Kumar Shinde are still important people.

There is no particular person I have contact with.

• Do people still meet you?

Yes, people meet me. I meet them whenever necessary.

• Swamiji, you say you are a man of learning who prays for the nation, not for any particular person. But you have acquired a controversial image and even been called a crook. Have you ever reflected on this?

This has been created by the media. I always want to stay away from the media. Since I have no contact with them, they have fired the gun from my shoulder and kept on writing. And now the truth is coming out. The court is clearing all the cases against me.

• It is not just the Press. It is commonly believed that you are a controversial Godman.

Wherever I go, hundreds of people come to see me. I have never encountered any hatred.

• Have you introspected that you could have been wrong?

I have not done anything wrong, so I have never thought about it. I have only wished that people see the truth.

• Learned people like you do a lot of introspection. What do you introspect on?

I think about how Bharat can remain Bharat. That the two most important things — rishis and agriculture — remain healthy and pure.

• Don’t you introspect about yourself? What you are doing or what you have done is right? Why is what is happening to me happening? Is it a fallout of my actions?

I do, but when I see that my role is nothing as compared to those driven by envy, encouraging politics of character assassination and embroiling people in court cases… This is unfortunate but I believe that with time this too will go away.

• Swamiji, you say that you keep away from the press but in these modern days a swami like you should have had a TV channel of your own.

No, I believe that meditation leads to fulfillment and then fame.

• What are your views on today’s five-star commercially successful swamis like the Art of Living, Rajneesh?

They should understand the depth of Indian culture, learning and work for that. They should not work for fame or to commercialise religion.

• How knowledgeable do you think these modern-day gurus are? Like Art of Living’s Sri Sri Ravishankar, Ma Nirmala Devi and Deepak Chopra?

I don’t think they have delved deeply in the art of meditation. Meditation is one thing, knowledge of commerce is another. Rajneesh was a great philosopher and I am all praise for Mahesh Yogi’s contribution in spreading Indian culture.

• You accept them at a spiritual level but you don’t give much importance to the modern gurus?

They are chasing money and fame and I don’t want to support them.

• Swamiji, what are your plans for the future?

I will continue serving Indian culture. As always, India is facing many problems such as communalism, casteism, regionalism.

• So you plan to fight against them?

The C’s — communalism, casteism, corruption and corporate — have taken over India. It is the P’s — prosperity, progress, peace — which should be spread.

• We are waiting for that day, and I would say to the new gurus that competition is on its way.

I stay away from competition.