‘A cabinet minister makes money… Problem comes when you do not give a farthing to the organisation’

• OK, I take your word on that. But you believe the people who went to Rajya Sabha from your party might have done something like that on their own?

No. You ask any of my MPs, in Rajya Sabha or Lok Sabha. The man who is charging me with having taken money from them has, in fact, himself earned money on the Shiv Sena.

• Who’s that?

I don’t want to name him.

• Balasaheb is not known to mince words. So, say who…

There is no question of mincing (my words). It should be published. But I don’t want a controversy at this stage.

• Could that person be with you now?

No, he has left.

• Can it be Narayan Rane or Chaggan Bhujbal?

No, not Bhujbal.

• Then it has to be Rane.

(Laughs) I don’t want to give him any importance at this time.

• You are a cartoonist. When you wake up in the morning, what makes you laugh? Or cry?

Nothing makes me laugh or cry. The standard of journalism has gone down so much. The column writers make the most mischief.

• But in terms of what’s happening in your city and country, what makes you happy?

There are no happy incidents, only blasts and murders. Bangladeshi Muslims pouring in. Pakistanis wreaking havoc. How can you feel happy?

• But there is 9 per cent growth. Infrastructure is being built. Indian companies are buying firms overseas.

See, I don’t see anything to be happy about. It’s a horrible situation. It’s (India is) sinking.

• The whole world is celebrating the rise of India…

But we should be ashamed of the fact that while they are praising us, we are doing nothing about the plight of the country. Corruption is so rampant.

• But sir, many people will smirk when they hear the Sena chief say so because the Sena doesn’t have the cleanest reputation — in government or the party.

But it’s much better than any other party. If an individual takes money in the name of Shiv Sena, what can I do, unless he is caught taking money and brought before me?

• But you also need money for the party.

I do.

• Where does that come from?

That comes from some good friends. Maybe (industry/business) magnates. They give if they wish to, but we don’t force anybody.

• Then, why did you remove Suresh Prabhu? We in Delhi believe that you removed him because he was not producing the gravy — or srikhand — from the power ministry.

I am not an idiot. I understand that anyone who is a cabinet minister makes ample money. I know how it is. Pramod (Mahajan) used to come to me and once I asked him: “You send so many of your MPs and ministers abroad to learn… but what do they learn? Nothing. And they say they don’t earn anything, either.” Pramod told me: “It’s all a blatant lie.”

• Particularly, your power minister — who had access to so much.

So much. I mean, how can you say you cannot. Even the organisation has its own needs. The problem comes when you earn and do not give a farthing to the organisation.

• So you’re saying that you suspected Prabhu was earning for himself but not passing anything to the party?

I don’t want to say anything now or make any allegations. That chapter was closed a long, long time back.

• No, we need to know why you removed him. People in Delhi thought he was a good minister.

We had our own reasons. What’s over is over.

• But Pramod told you that if any minister says that he is not making any money, he is lying.

Yes, he told me.

• And it irritated you that, ‘my ministers are making money and they are not giving to the party’?

They must have made money. My ministers were not fools.

• Suresh Prabhu wasn’t. He was one of the brightest people I met in that cabinet.

He was a very, very intelligent person.

• Going back to the idea of benevolent dictatorship and the way you explained it as Shiv Shahi, does that explain the way you responded?

First, let me make clear what “benevolent” is. It’s (acting) for the people, for their welfare. Unless you dictate, how can you rule?

• So does that explain why you did not disagree with the Emergency and you thought Sanjay Gandhi’s methods were good. You admired him?

It’s good that you have asked me this question. The Emergency is long gone, Sanjay Gandhi is no more, Indira Gandhi is no more.

• … and Sonia Gandhi has expressed regret about the Emergency…

(Gestures dismissively) Sonia Gandhi is not a political person. I have said that she is not a political leader but a political reader. She laughed when Vir Sanghvi quoted these words while interviewing her. I saw her laugh for the first time.

• So what is the meaning of her laughter, what did you read in it?

She said I might be right.

• But she is having the last laugh.

Yes she is. But how long that laugh will last, I don’t know. Anyway, I did support the Emergency. I said: “I do support Indiraji on this Emergency. If it has been imposed in the interest of the nation then I am with her.” I also said that if she had brought the Emergency for the sake of her own chair, I would oppose her vehemently.

• When did you realise that she had done it for self-preservation?

The worst part was the censorship of the press. I did not like it when the freedom of the press was attacked. That’s when she lost her political grip. And that’s why she lost that election. Otherwise, of what worth was that man, Raj Narain? He was a big fool.

• Never call a Lohiaite a fool.

I did not say all of them were fools. Look at George Fernandes. What was he then and what is he now? Then he was a staunch politician. Now he has no definite thinking. He was a Lohiaite then. Not now. Lohia was a hard nut to crack. But today, these (his followers) are all walnuts. You can crack them with your hands.

• You went to see Sanjay Gandhi on one of your rare visits to Delhi.

But the Emergency was not the subject of the meeting. Buta Singh, the sports minister at that time, called me up and told me that Sanjay wanted to meet me. When I went to see him, he asked me about Rajni Patel. I told him he was a nobody. I then asked Sanjay if it was true the Shiv Sena was going to be banned. He asked, “No, who told you?”

• Was this during the Emergency?

Perhaps yes. Later, I met Indira Gandhi and she had a list of organisations to be banned. There was some Muslim organisation and the RSS. Shiv Sena was the third to be banned. Then, she took a pen and struck off Shiv Sena from the list, asking, “Who put this name here?’

• Why? Because you went and made peace with Sanjay Gandhi?

No, not at all. He called me. I did not go there on my own.

• But you did go to his darbar? Did you go to sue for peace? Was it like Shivaji going to Agra, whatever the intent?

I don’t understand how that question arises here.

• Shivaji made a strategic move at that time as he was under pressure?

I was not under pressure. I was prepared even for arrest. I always keep my bag ready.

• But did you like Sanjay?

He was much better than Rajiv. He had guts and gumption. Once he took a decision he acted on it.

• But he needed Emergency powers to do that. And he lost the elections.

No. I am talking about a period when there was no Emergency.

• And Mrs Gandhi? Where do you put her in the list of our leaders?

Among the prime ministers, she was the best as far as decision-taking was concerned. No other PM took such firm decisions as she did. See what Nehru did in Kashmir. The whole territory occupied by Pakistan, PoK, Indiraji would have let the army march into that territory. But Nehru stopped them halfway and created PoK. Indiraji would not have done this.

• But she did that in 1971. She had the choice of moving forward in the western sector towards Pakistani Punjab, but she did not. And she signed the Shimla Agreement.

I am told that the Shimla Agreement was the best we have had with Pakistan. The media says that.

• Overall, you think Indira Gandhi was the best prime minister India has had?

Yes. Shastriji got barely a year.

• And where will you put Vajpayee?

If you have a coalition of too many parties, it is very difficult to run a government. I was always quiet (during the NDA coalition rule). We never insisted, never begged before these people.

• How would you characterise Vajpayee in the pantheon of national leaders?

First he is a poet, and a poet has a soft, soft heart. Not very decisive and gutsy. Whenever he wanted to take a decision, they — Jayalalithaa, Mamata, Samata — were ready to oppose him. They put him down all the time. He was not able to take a decision.

• He carried out nuclear tests in 1998.

Yes, but there were people like Kalam who put pressure on Vajpayee to carry out the tests. But that was the beginning of the end of his government.

• How?

Because, after that, there were no decisions. Nothing.

• So you give more credit to Kalam for the nuclear tests than Vajpayee?

Yes. He is a responsible person.

• And do you think he should get another term?

Another term? There are many who are standing in the queue. I don’t like it if the president has to be elected based on factors other than his qualifications. When K.R. Narayanan was fielded for the post, Chandrashekhar called me and asked me why my party was the only one opposing him. Shiv Sena had fielded T. N. Seshan. I told Chandrashekhar, I oppose his candidate because he is being fielded in the name of caste, because he is a Dalit. Narayanan was a qualified person, so why put his caste forward?

• You have had a personal equation with Vajpayee. Tell us about that.

I like and respect him. When he was PM, he once sent Arun Shourie to me to talk about disinvestment. I told Arun that his (disinvestment) policy was not in the national interest, so he went and told Vajpayee the same.

• Vajpayee has a great sense of humour.

Oh yes, he does.

• Were you able to laugh at his jokes?

Yes. Once the Shiv Sena leader in Delhi protested against the Vajpayee government and burnt his putla. He went to meet Vajpayee as part of a delegation the next day. Vajpayee looked at him and asked: “Kal to mera putla jalaya tha, to aaj murde se baat karne aye ho?” I like that sort of sense of humour.

• Coming back to the Kalam question, do you believe Muslims can be equal citizens of India? Can you treat them as absolutely equal citizens of India?

Yes. I will treat the good Muslims who love this country as equal citizens.

• Are the majority of Muslims here good Muslims according to you?

It’s difficult to say that. But India’s Muslims must show their mettle, must declare that ‘we are this and not that’.

• You are not anti-Islam or anti-Muslim — are you saying that?

I am not anti-Muslim. But the way they are misusing the word Islam and its preachings, they do not come across as the real followers of Islam.

• Let me go back to your close confidants. You have lost many of them — Raj Thackeray, Narayan Rane. How traumatic was it?

I don’t want to touch that subject.

• How upset were you?

It’s a long story. I gave up Rane but Raj left of his own accord. He was like my child.

• So was it a trauma when he left?

Trauma, drama — sub kuchh.

• Could you have prevented it?

I tried my best but he had made up his mind. He wanted to be a leader. He was not prepared to work under anybody except me.

• Do you still have the same feeling of love for Raj?

It will always be there. I give more importance to relations than to politics.

• But you don’t get to see him anymore?

No, if we try to meet, there will the channel-wallahs, panel-wallahs, a mob.

• But do you miss him?

Everybody in my family misses him.

• And do you believe that one day he will be back, to the family at least?

I don’t know.

• But if he comes back, you will welcome him, forgetting the politics?

Oh yes, everybody will welcome him. We do not hold any enmity, because we have the same blood.

• Was that one of the three big traumas of your life — the loss of your wife and son and the departure of your nephew?

That’s true.

• Tell us about your love of cricket.

Oh, I love it.

• All the cricket in India is in the hands of your favourite politician, Sharad Pawar. You said he is the only Marathi politician worthy of the PM’s chair.

I did not say it like that.

• But what do you think of him?

He was a powerful person but did not play his cards properly.

• Did you tell him that?

I have said that in Samna and elsewhere.

• But I can also see that there is a personal warmth between you and him.

Yes, he is a very old friend of mine.

• Is that why you supported his daughter, Supriya Sule?

No. She is a very intelligent girl and I saw she has a spark.

• Do we see any more in it than what you have said? Can it be that you and Pawar’s NCP are building a relationship?

In politics, nothing is certain.

• Would you say that the NCP is not untouchable to you?

I don’t treat anyone as untouchable.

• Even the Left?

That’s different. Who you deal with depends first on the principles. If there is a similarity there, only then you can think of having a relationship. I don’t need others’ power, I have my own.

• Don’t you think the Shiv Sena is a power in decline?

Not at all. You will see.

• And you think you have a sufficiently good succession in place now?

Sure. Let time prove that.

• Among the faces in politics today, who will you like to draw a caricature of?

Let me begin with you.

• Will you like to draw Buddhadeb Bhattacharya?

Oh, no. There are certain faces whose caricatures your don’t need to draw. Their faces themselves are like a caricature. Buddhadeb’s is one of them.

• Congratulations on your 80th birthday.

I am going to live for a long, long time.

(Concluded)