Swiss Ambassador Ralf Heckner on India’s role in the ongoing conflict in Europe, navigating the Middle East crisis, and the Free Trade Agreement. The conversation was moderated by Shubhajit Roy, Diplomatic Editor, The Indian Express Shubhajit Roy: What’s been the highlight of your four years in India? With COVID, there was no connectivity and there were no flights. So connectivity was established a year-and-a-half after it was interrupted, and now we are waiting for India to fly to Switzerland. We have been administering more visas last year than before COVID, and this year we may go up to 2,20,000 visas. That means every third or fourth visa that the Swiss Federal Department of Foreign Affairs is issuing worldwide is being issued in Delhi. The Free Trade Agreement (FTA) was signed in March this year, after years of negotiations, and that was the highlight of my four years. Last October, we launched an innovation platform with India, where Indian universities, Swiss universities, technical high schools and innovative businesses are coming together to do practical innovation that you can use for the people of India, Switzerland and the world. And the ambition is even bigger. We would like to establish an innovation institute in Bangalore, which would be the first time that the Swiss government would invest in such an institution. Shubhajit Roy: Switzerland hosted the Ukraine Peace Conference recently. What do you make of India’s participation and Prime Minister Modi’s visit to Ukraine? For me, this year, the Ukraine Peace Conference was the most important diplomatic event between Switzerland and India. The Swiss Foreign Minister was here at the end of January and met the External Affairs Minister (S Jaishankar). We had the State Secretary of Foreign Affairs from Switzerland meeting with the then Secretary (West), Pavan Kapoor. India participated in the Ukraine Peace Conference. Pavan Kapoor, who is now the Deputy National Security Advisor, is a very knowledgeable person. He was Ambassador to Russia and he also knows Ukraine well. The fact that India participated was highly important and highly appreciated. Now to see India continuing to step up and using its influence… PM Modi, post elections, was in Italy, and Russia, he went to Poland, then Ukraine, so it’s great to see that this government is now investing in diplomacy. On MOdi’s Visit to Ukraine: Diplomacy is complicated. Success isn’t certain. Seeing PM Modi move in this direction — being courageous and showing action — is great. This will be good for Ukraine, Russia, the US and Europe After four years here, I feel that what Minister Jaishankar wrote in his book, about India being a little bit like Hanuman, who, as he writes, was strong. But Hanuman did not understand how strong he was until he realised how strong he was. Then he freed the wife of Lord Rama. Diplomacy is trying your best for a good cause. Diplomacy is complicated, and success is not certain. So seeing Prime Minister Modi move in this direction — being courageous and showing action — is great. This will be good for Ukraine, and the Ukrainian people. It will be good for Russia and the Russian people. It will be good for Europe. It will be good for the US. It will be good for the global South. So if we, and thanks to India, find a peaceful, negotiated solution to this conflict, the consequences will only be positive. Shubhajit Roy: India’s primary objection to not signing the joint communique was that Russia, one of the principal stakeholders of the conflict, was not there at the Peace Summit. Is India going to play the role of an intermediary to get Russia on board for the peace summit next time? It was always clear that it needs two to tango and that means that Russia needed to be present. Switzerland tried a peace process and I think that is also why President Zelensky asked the Swiss government to organise this peace conference. We made it clear that Russia needs to be part of peace negotiations. This was the first shot, and it had the objective to have a large number of countries together, occupying a space of peace. Now what is the sequence of this? It can be a second conference, it can also be a second stream of diplomatic activities coming from other countries, maybe India, or Russia. So you’d have one stream — Ukraine-Switzerland Peace Conference. Another one, maybe, involving Russia and other countries, and then those two streams of negotiation. For that next conference, you’d have, maybe, another country that is organising the conference and countries like India bringing the Russians into the process. But at this point, what will be the follow-up is open for countries like India to fill the place. India definitely has a role to play. Shubhajit Roy: Do you see some parallel between the Swiss position and the Indian position when dealing with conflicts and crises, like maintaining a certain notion of neutrality? I see us alike in our pursuit for peace. The Prime Minister (Modi) made it clear in Poland that this is not an era of war. So the message is clear and consistent. Switzerland is neutral because we, too, want peace, and that was a good strategy. There, we are fully aligned. In my assessment, a country of importance like India has a role to play that is bigger than neutrality. India is not the India of after Independence. India is a growing power. So the more powerful you are, the more influence you have, the more responsibility you have. India is influencing world affairs in a way that a country like Switzerland is not doing when it comes to geopolitics. Switzerland can influence the world through our way of foreign policy based on peaceful relations and attaching importance to international humanitarian law. We are in a time of geopolitics and India is in that space. Looking at what the Prime Minister (Modi) is doing, he is very mindful of that. Shubhajit Roy: Since the crisis in the Middle East is still festering, what’s your sense of how this conflict is playing out? When it comes to Israel and Palestine, we launched what is called the Geneva Initiative, where we try to bring people from Israel and Palestine together to come up with a potential solution to the intrinsic challenges and problems that the region and the two authorities have. Switzerland’s diplomacy has been active in the Middle East, in the past, and we have been consistently working for a two-state solution. It is clear what is happening in the Middle East is highly risky. So, over the last two years, we have been very consistent with our approach to the conflict. We made it clear that international humanitarian law has to be respected because if that is respected, the damages of a war or a conflict are limited. Then go into a settlement of the conflict, when both parties are being held accountable according to international humanitarian law. Vandita Mishra: What, according to you, is the reason for the emergence of India at this moment? Because of geopolitics, and economic trends, India is for Switzerland, a partner of choice. We have been friends since the beginning because the first friendship treaty that was signed, India signed with Switzerland. So we have been friends for 75 years. And for that reason, we signed a partnership agreement. And as an ambassador of Switzerland to India, I confirm that India is a plus one for many Swiss companies that want to diversify their global presence. So economically, India is in a good spot. It’s good if democracies work together, and the elections this year show to the world that India is a vibrant democracy. So, working with a democracy is something that Swiss people and businesses definitely cherish. We have something in common that goes beyond business interests. On india’s current geopolitical influence: India is not the India of after Independence. India is a growing power… India is influencing world affairs in a way that a country like Switzerland is not doing when it comes to geopolitics I feel a sense that the world is changing and that the countries of this world want to see a different world, different structures, different institutions adapted to the realities of today. India is clearly well positioned, because India has always been an important country and in this geopolitical situation, you are very well placed to have an impact. Shubhajit Roy: How do you see India’s relationship with China? It is intertwined economically, but strategically at complete loggerheads. How do you see this dichotomy? What India is trying to navigate is something that the whole world is also trying to navigate — the relations with China and the changing international landscape. Switzerland has a long-standing relationship with China. We’d like to have good relations with each and every country and don’t want to choose between this country and another country. We want to see a peaceful world and see economic freedom and expansion of economic globalisation. On Gaza-Israel Conflict: I believe that peace is possible in the Middle East. Switzerland’s diplomacy has been active there and we have been consistently working for a two-state solution Anil Sasi: Have the events of October 7 and the subsequent Israeli offensive on Gaza, and then the Iranian involvement, made the two-state solution even more difficult? Who would have thought in 1945 that Europe would turn into a European Union and that those states that fought each other and destroyed each other would be truly friends and would support each other in difficult situations. If you have a look at the Middle East, peace is possible. Israel made peace with Egypt, and Egypt made peace with Israel, and that was after a war. Just imagine how the state of Israel was forgiving towards Germany in a way that those two states have good relations. So peace is possible, and it has been proven several times in the region. You have an enormous capacity for forgiveness in that region too. So for that reason, I remain deeply convinced and optimistic that something good will come out, even if it looks incredibly sad and destructive at this point. P Vaidyanathan Iyer: Switzerland has its business relations with China. How much do you feel sandwiched between two big powers — the US and China? It’s not the first time that we are in this situation. Look at Switzerland’s history. We were in the middle of Europe and all our neighbours were either already nation-states, like France, or were uniting as nation-states, like Italy and Germany. All these states kept making wars regularly and some of them turned into World Wars. As a country, we have been in the toughest neighbourhood of this world, until this changed in 1945 and then in 1990 even more. We know how to adapt to a changing environment. At the end of the day, we have to define what Switzerland is. Our values, identity, democracy and peaceful way of doing things, and based on our economic interests these will be the different equations that we have to look at in order to position ourselves. It will also depend on how much competition or even confrontation there is between the different powers of this world. The majority of the countries on this planet want to have a peaceful planet. We will find ourselves in almost all situations with a lot of other countries that want the same thing. Ravi Dutta Mishra: When is Switzerland going to ratify the European Free Trade Association (EFTA) deal? What are you expecting from the bilateral investment treaty because now we are going to negotiate after a $100 billion investment commitment has been announced? The ratification will happen next year. India has been the first country ratified because all you have to do is to inform Parliament. India has been incredibly quick and we will catch up in 2025. Trade and economic partnership agreement is like a marriage because both sides promise something. We promised $100 billion investments and $1 million of new and future-oriented jobs, especially for the youth. India promised a conducive investment environment and a steady high growth of your economy. We have one new framework condition — the Trade and Economic Partnership Agreement (TEPA). The next important framework condition that needs to be worked on is this Bilateral Investment Treaty (BIT). This will be the priority for us to get this treaty done because the investments need to be protected. Then we have to learn, based on company cases, where the bottlenecks are. After four years here, we have different mechanisms to deal with company cases in Switzerland and in India to solve those as quickly as possible. Company cases can show you where we would need to adopt some regulations in Switzerland or in India. It is very important now that company cases in all five countries are being dealt with very quickly and concretely because that would send out the signal that with the signing of this treaty, you really improve your investment climate. But the fact that four European countries signed a trade deal with India shows that a lot of investment climate relevant indicators and boxes are being checked by India, otherwise we would not have signed a deal with India. Shalini Langer: One of the cornerstones of the Modi government, when it came to power, was that they will bring back black money from Swiss banks. Is there any engagement between the two countries on that? Why was this trade deal possible? Because there was no cloud over our bilateral sky. I arrived here at a very positive bilateral juncture. The so-called black money issue was dealt with and solved in September 2018 because then India and Switzerland signed a treaty on the automatic exchange of bank information. So that means, each year, in September, India receives all information of Indian bank account holders in Switzerland and we receive all information of Swiss bank account holders in India. Black money has not been an issue and has been solved. Divya A: You mentioned 2,20,000 visas being issued. What are the new areas of co-operation beyond Bollywood and tourism? It is thanks to Bollywood that we have this relationship. This is the chunk of our people-to-people relations, which is great because Indian tourists are very curious. I have been meeting so many Indians who are very knowledgeable about Switzerland. Sometimes they know more about some corners of Switzerland than me. Devyani Onial: How much impact did Bollywood have on tourism and people-to-people contact? You cannot underestimate the importance of Bollywood, thanks to Bollywood, and thanks to Yash Chopra and movie stars like Shah Rukh Khan. He was recently awarded at the Locarno Film Festival and it was really great to hear him talk positively about Switzerland. Some movies that he acted in were shot in Switzerland and those helped him to turn into the movie star that he is today in India. Bollywood has helped build people-to-people relations. Whatever we as a government do, being at TEPA or an innovation, we will always find people that will run with it. Monojit Majumdar: Swiss President has spoken of immediate ceasefire in Gaza. Has there been a direct effort from Switzerland to reach out and use this enormous leverage after almost 200 years of peacemaking? Bilaterally, we are regularly in contact with the parties of the conflict. We have been beefing up our humanitarian aid for Gaza and the affected population. We have not organised a conference like Ukraine, but for that you also need the conditions. You have a look at the Ukraine conference, we had one of the two parties that asked us to organise a conference and already that is very challenging. It’s not that you have perfect conditions for a peace conference if only one party says yes. Being the Swiss ambassador to India and not in one of the countries in the Middle East, at this point, I don’t see a peace conference happening. But what I see is that the Security Council is dealing with the Middle Eastern conflict, that American diplomacy is active, and that there is a clear consensus that this suffering has to stop.
