Ghulam Nabi Azad: ‘I don’t see any chance of parties uniting because every leader has his or her ego… everybody feels the Congress has become weak’

Age has nothing to do with forming a party. The success stories that we know have been of old people only. Mahatma Gandhi was the oldest among the group. I know we are not even the dust of his shoes. Jayaprakash Narayan toppled Indira Gandhi, one of the most powerful persons in Indian politics at that time. He was retired and sitting at home. Nobody was bothered about his image. The same in Jammu and Kashmir. Farooq [Abdullah] saab is the tallest leader in the state at the age of 84. Sharad Pawar is still called a strongman. Karunanidhi was above 90 when he was the chief ministerial candidate. People suggested his son should be projected but his party said he was better than his son. So, age has nothing to do with it. People should have confidence. We have young people but you see their performance… because people do not have confidence. So, confidence and your track record is what matters. The track record and the work done by me as a chief minister is remembered by one and all.

You had been in the CWC for nearly four decades. You were nominated as well as elected. Till 2020 — when you and 22 other senior leaders wrote that letter — you never said a word about elections to the CWC and collective decision-making.

You put a kettle on with water for boiling. The water keeps boiling. You take the kettle out when the water starts overflowing…because it is overboiled. It is like that. It (the issues) started to overflow. I could not take it anymore. It became intolerable.

But you were part of the same system and you have been beneficiary of the same system which you are criticising now.

All that will come out in my memoir. I was a firebrand (leader) and what reforms I used to suggest in meetings of the CWC… they were lucky that I was calm in the recent working committee meetings. And there is a reason for that. I have great respect for Indira-ji and Rajiv-ji. I was very young but Indiraji would consult me on a number of things and they would be implemented. Rajiv-ji and I worked together in the Youth Congress. So, we were more colleagues and friends rather than Prime Minister-Minister and Congress president and a party functionary.

My question was since Sonia Gandhi took over as Congress president, the Congress has not seen elections to the CWC. You raised the issue in 2020. Why didn’t you raise these issues earlier?

There was no problem in the first six years. Mrs Gandhi would depend on seniors. Not just me…others also. She delegated powers and we delivered results. From 1998 to 2004, she made me in-charge of eight states and I won seven states. In the eighth one also, I doubled the seats. But after that, slowly and gradually, she tried to introduce a new leadership and consultations with the senior leaders minimised, particularly after January 2013 when Rahul Gandhi was made vice-president.

After 2013, did you ever tell Sonia Gandhi what’s happening in the party…that Rahul Gandhi is sidelining seniors, destroying the consultative mechanism and all.

There was an AICC session in 2013. I was in-charge of the group on organisation. We prepared a booklet — listed out the priorities, both short term and long term. The short term ones were were to start programmes within 15 days so that we can win the 2014 Lok Sabha elections. This was discussed and passed by the CWC. Unfortunately none of these recommendations were implemented.

That is what. Did you ever raise these issues with Sonia Gandhi before 2020?

I raised 3-4 times with madam [Sonia] and nearly half-a-dozen times with Rahul Gandhi that elections are approaching and we are not implementing.

After the defeat?

Yes. Everybody was saying. For consultations… they were not meeting people. I never had difficulties in meeting Sonia Gandhi… let’s be fair to her. I had problems meeting the young man. Other people, too, were not able to meet. I brought to the notice of Sonia Gandhi that…nothing is happening and ultimately the culmination of all that was the G-23 letter. First, I wrote to Sonia Gandhi…raised the same points as in the G-23 letter. I waited for a month. Nothing happened. Then we wrote the letter together. After the letter too, we met Sonia Gandhi (in December 2020). Rahul Gandhi, Priyanka Gandhi, some others and 10 from the G-23. At that meeting also, it was decided to make some short-term and medium-term plans (for revival). Nothing happened in two years.

You said in your letter that Rahul Gandhi’s “tearing off a government ordinance in the full media glare” in 2013 completely subverted the authority of the Prime Minister and Government of India. You were a minister in the Manmohan Singh government and you kept silent. Why didn’t you speak out then?

Even the Prime Minister didn’t say anything. I told you about the pot & kettle. It was boiling inside all these years. I did not say anything because the prime minister was silent. He reconciled. Some people suggested to him that he should resign if he felt insulted. But he kept quiet. We also kept quiet. See, one cannot take a decision just like that. You have to give time to the leader… to reform and to change. In the CWC meeting after the 2019 election, he (Rahul) said “nobody…seniors… supported me which is why I am leaving (resigning)”. We said tell us where we did not support you. He said “I had told everybody to say ‘chowkidar chor hai’. And then he said.. those who said that raise your hands…naturally some junior people raised their hands…we did not. Is this the type of support he expects from us? So, all these things piled up.

The Congress is about to start a yatra, its biggest mass contact programme and you resigned. There are questions on the timing?

You have no time for uniting the Congress and you have time to measure the road. I can imagine if you were to go village to village…here for just another photo opportunity… marching through the main roads…what is the main purpose? Today no state is seceding like it was in the immediate years after the Independence…which part of the country is seceding..so, why are you giving a slogan of “jodo”.

This ‘jodo’ is in the context of the divisive politics.

Then you should have said ‘dilon ko jodo’. You have to go house to house. You have to hold seminars in each village, block, district saying ‘dilon ko jodo’ and then get some historians, eminent personalities, religious leaders to drive home the message of unity…With NSUI, Seva Dal and Youth Congress people who do not know the history of present leaders, forget the old ones…with slogans like ‘neta hamara kaise hoga..Rahul Gandhi jaise ho’…iss se Bharat judega?

What should they have done to unite the Congress?

They must spare time. Are they giving time for the party? The other day a spokesperson Jaiveer Shergill resigned. He was team Rahul. He said he had not been able to meet Rahul for one-and-a-half years. In other parties, leaders meet spokespersons twice a day to discuss what is to be spoken and what is not to be spoken. Here, the national spokespersons…3-4 of them have never met Rahul Gandhi. So, if they do not have time for the party…how will people unite.

You were close to Sanjay Gandhi and then Rajiv Gandhi. You were consulted by Sonia Gandhi, as you say, in her initial years as party president. So, in a way you were part of the coterie. Now, a new set of coterie has come up.

There was no system of coterie then. Sanjay Gandhi, Indira Gandhi and Rajiv Gandhi worked for 18 hours a day. Why would they need a coterie? You need a coterie when you don’t work and need people to run around.

My question is that you were in the thick of action all the time. Now, there is a new team…so there is unease…of not being heard.

What is the outcome of the new team? It has to be performance based, result oriented. What is the result? You have lost 39 state elections…reduced to two states…in Parliament 44 seats and 52 seats. Not even the Leader of the Opposition position. Is this the performance…wah…very good.

But you backed Rahul Gandhi in 2017 when he contested for the post of President.

I did not expect him to work the way he worked. I thought the young man will give a good leadership. The type of leadership his father and uncle gave.

You said his security guard and PAs were taking decisions. Give one or two examples.

Rahul-ji knows and everybody in the Congress party knows.

Tell me one or two decisions.

Every decision.

Security guards and PAs are taking all decisions…

On their advice. This I don’t have to tell. Every Congressman knows that.

Lastly, you have got tremendous support from Jammu and Kashmir. Several leaders have quit the party supporting you. But outside Jammu and Kashmir not even a single leader has come out in support of you despite the fact that you have been general secretary of all the states…in the CWC for nearly four decades.

How do you know? I have been receiving telephones from very unexpected quarters. They are not coming out openly because I have already said that there will be a national party and a state party. The national party is not my priority at the moment. Because that needs a lot of consultations and other seniors have to be in the fold. That would be done in consultation with them. When we announce that, we are launching a national party, definitely people will come. My first priority is J&K and 90 per cent of the Congress [J&K] has come with me already.

The Congress is asking how are you able to continue living in the bungalow even one-and-a-half years after your retirement. They are seeing a BJP connection in that too.

Which leader in the Congress party has escaped militant attacks 26 times in Punjab and about 16 times in J&K. Show me one leader. I was given Z-plus security not by Modi but by the previous government. I got Z-plus because of the threat perception. The government has allowed me to continue because of the threat perception. I have been asked to pay rent, electricity and water charges which I am doing.

Given your vast political experience…what is your forecast for 2024 elections? Is the BJP retaining power?

I can’t say. I wish the Congress would improve. I wish the secular forces to improve their tally.

So, is 2024 still open…anybody can win?

That depends upon the working of each political party and what type of coordination will take place between the political parties…whether they will unite. But I don’t foresee any chance of uniting because every political party leader has his or her ego…everybody feels the Congress has become weak…why would they listen to the Congress or work under its leadership…The Congress does not have the confidence of the people.

If the Gandhis step aside, will it make a difference?

It depends how capable the leader is. If the new leader comes…and sleeps at home…thinking vote will come from the sky…the situation could become worse.