‘The ceasefire offer to ULFA was a misjudgment, our assessment was wrong but done with good intentions’

• And it’s out first Walk The Talk in the North-East.

Thanks very much for taking interest in the North-East.

• You are a special kind of leader for Assam. You are the first CM to get a second consecutive term in almost 40 years.

Yeah, it’s because of the blessings of the people of Assam. And definitely we have done good work.

• But why this instability here? So much political change.

In fact it started 1972 onwards. Before that stability was there. After 1972, and then the 1977 elections, it started changing. After that lots of problems cropped up. Agitations, the AASU agitation against foreigners. . . then, of course, lots of unemployment problems. It’s all the creation of Pakistan.

• Pakistan?

Yeah, because of our road link now. . . of course it’s Bangladesh.

• So everything got disconnected.

Everything got disconnected, the road links, river links, rail links. So that has become the main problem also. That’s why the progress of the state is going down and down. Geographical location also and one is distance.

• So how would you describe your state today — disturbed or normal?

It’s almost normal. I don’t describe it disturbed. I don’t say 100 per cent normal. But you can say 95 per cent normal.

• And tell me about the five per cent that isn’t.

Insurgency problem is there, no doubt. And another problem here is clashes among the ethnic tribals. Among the other castes and creeds also, there are differences. That’s mainly because of the economic backwardness, lack of employment opportunity.

• What is the state of insurgency now?

Insurgency has gone down. The support base is going down, there’s no doubt. A very small percentage of people support insurgency, otherwise it has gone down like anything.

• But there are some who say support base may have gone down among the common people, but insurgents still get support, even from your police sometimes.

I don’t think it’s there in Assam. If you see the record, even the performance of Assam police is much better.

• One well-known insurgent escaped from your police custody and two other alleged ISI agents were found to be making calls to Bangladesh with the help of your police.

That ISI calling from outside jail was because of the court’s order. He (the police officer) misunderstood it, allowed him to talk to his own residence also, and allowed him to talk from a PCO. That was a mistake.

• So have you punished the police officer.

We immediately suspended him. By and large, police have done a credible job.

• So how much of a shadow does ULFA cast on Assam and Assam’s reputation now?

The impression outside is that Assam is full of insecurity, people cannot move, people cannot move after dark, but this is not the fact. You can see that at 11-12 in the night, buses are plying as in other parts of the country. The number of tourists has gone up, even the flights from Delhi and other parts of the country have increased.

• Those things have changed, but at the same time, for investors, for tourists, there’s always a fear. Because people think there’s extortion on. People think you can’t do business in Assam unless you pay protection money.

I don’t say so. There has been exaggeration, too.

• But there’s extortion.

In some parts. I don’t say we have been able to completely control it. Sometimes, they (victims) don’t inform us.

• You mean businessmen.

Businessmen also. The industries don’t inform us. But it has gone down.

• But when you go out looking for investments? I’ve noticed that roads have improved, there are more trains to Assam, and there are more flights, but there are no investments coming in. When you ask businessmen, they say, look, we are scared.

Today, they are not scared. I went to Bombay, I met Ratan Tata and even the Ambanis. They are keen. They are coming.

• But nothing has come in. . .

No, some has started coming in. I don’t want to say nothing has come it.

• Apart from some paan masala and some biscuits. . .

No, no, you see Hindustan Lever. I still remember Banga, who was vice-president those days.

• Vindy Banga, yes.

Yes, he had apprehensions. So he spoke to Manmohan Singh, who rang me up. So I said don’t worry Sir, I will take full care. And today they are very happy. They are expanding their business like anything.

• And you spoke to Dr Manmohan Singh obviously as an MP from Assam.

That’s of course true.

• And not just as the Prime Minister.

At that time, he wasn’t the Prime Minister. I’m talking of 2001.

• Tell me, Tarunda, what is the status of the ULFA now? How strong are they? Where
are they? Who are the leaders, what are they doing?

Frankly speaking, the leaders are Paresh Barua and Aurobindo. But their support base is gone, it has been eroded, even in the district where they have their largest number of followers. . .

• Which districts are these, Tinsukia?

Tinsukia, Dibrugarh. There we (Congress) won almost all the seats. Tinsukia, we won all the seats.

• And to what do you ascribe this fall in support base as you described it?

You see people have realised, because of their extortions and kidnappings. Because they are based in Bangladesh, people have realized their real motives. Their motive is not the welfare of the state.

• But you are convinced that they are based in Bangladesh?

Yes, there’s no doubt.

• Is it some Bangladesh government intelligence?

We have some suspicions, we can’t say definitely, but we have our suspicions.

• Right. I noticed one of them even admitted in your custody that he had carried out attacks on Awami League rallies at the behest of the ruling party in Bangladesh.

Of that, we don’t have any intelligence report. But they have indirect support, I have no doubt about it.

• No, no. One of them, according to your intelligence department, said he had carried out attacks in Bangladesh against a political rally, against the Awami League.

That I can’t say.

• So have you brought this up with the Centre?

I do take it up sometimes, not that I don’t. But we don’t have definite information.

• So what does the Centre say when you tell them about it?

They are also trying their level best. The Bangladesh government, in those days, they didn’t admit they (the militants) were based in Bangladesh. In fact, we have been insisting all along that their bases in Bangladesh should be wiped out.

• Do you know where their bases are in Bangladesh?

Some areas, I know. Near Chittagong, and all those places.

• For example, in Kashmir they say we have maps of the camps, Lashkar-e-Taiba, Jaish-e-Muhammed. Do we have that kind of information on ULFA camps?

We do have information. They are small camps, not big ones.

• What is the total strength of the ULFA?

I don’t think there will be more than 800-odd people, 700-800 people.

• And what kind of weaponry would they have?

All sophisticated, there’s no doubt about that.

• You must have learnt a lot from the ULFA people you have caught?

Yeah

• From where are they getting these weapons?

Mainly from sources they get help, and these days it’s very easy to buy also. Bangkok and everywhere. It’s easy to acquire these things.

• And they can bring them overland?

Overland. There’s no doubt about it.

• Right, this Bangladesh situation. Are you now saying that Bhutan is more or less clear, or are there some of them in Bhutan as well?

Yes, yes. Bhutan is cleared. But even then they try to sneak in.

• How successful was the operation we carried out in Bhutan?

It was definitely successful.

• Because there is a feeling we stopped short of destroying ULFA at that point, we hesitated at the last moment.

No, no. We didn’t hesitate. The Bhutan government also helped us a lot.

• To that extent you will give credit to the NDA government, for that operation?

No, we also wanted it, from the very beginning, even when the NDA government was there, I was insisting that bases, whether in Bhutan or Myanmar, should be closed.

• So now would you say that Bhutan and Myanmar are closed?

No, no. It’s still there in Myanmar, but the Burmese government is also trying.

• But where is their presence more significant, Bangladesh or Myanmar?

Mainly Bangladesh, because their leaders are there.

• Do you notice any change in Bangladesh, since the Army has taken over?

Slight changes we have noticed.

• Changes for the better?

For the better. If the election results in government change, it will be a positive sign.

• Because it’s a strange situation. In Pakistan, they say if democracy comes it will be good for India. In Bangladesh, on the other hand, when the Army takes charge, they are more moderate.

That difference is there. There’s no doubt.

• So have you seen that change on the ground since the Army has taken over in Bangladesh?

Some changes we have noticed.

• What is the level of your contact with the ULFA and its sympathisers now?

We don’t have direct contact with them. So we try to keep contact through the PCG groups. But they have also failed. They couldn’t bring them to the negotiating table. They promised it.

• Tell us, for people in the rest of the country, what are these PCG groups? We are very confused.

These are people’s representative groups. Normally, the ULFA appointed (chose) them.

• Are they closer to ULFA or closer to the government?

They are not closer to the government. They are slightly closer to the ULFA. Except, of course, one lady, Dr Mamuni Raisom. She is not close to either side. Except her.

• Dr Indira Goswami, would you say she is equidistant?

Yes, equidistant. Others are all sympathisers.

• You just said there is no sympathy for ULFA, but these are well-known intellectuals.

No, no, they are not. There are a few people. They are not the representatives of the people of Assam. Nor do I consider them to be representatives of the intellectuals of Assam.

• You know, I will tell you a fact. The fact is that many of us got the feeling that your government was being soft on the ULFA, that you were bending over backwards to accommodate them and the obvious impression was they were helping you with the elections.

That’s wrong. If you see, in my tenure, the number of extremists killed were more than those killed in the previous regime. If you see the number of extremists either caught or killed, it is much more. How can you say (that)? I may be soft, but my action is not soft.

• You may be soft-sounding. Unlike one of your Congress predecessors, Hiteshwar
Saikia, whose talk was very tough. But sometimes tough talks helps, isn’t it? To reassure people?

It helps. But sometimes people must understand that action is more important than talk.

• Because I will tell you what happens.

The action gives the signal to the police and others.

• Because even your Governor has said that ULFA misused the period of ceasefire
to regroup, to get more weapons.

That is not only the governor’s view, it is my view also. We did everything with good intentions. With sincerity. But we subsequently found they reorganised themselves, extortions were going up, their equipment was going up. They misused it. I took it up with the Government of India.

• When you say you took it up with the Government of India, was the ceasefire your decision or the decision of the Government of India?

The Government of India informed me and I immediately agreed. It was not my decision. The Government of India had decided, because the PCG groups had given assurance and the Governmetn of India believed it.

• But you think that trust was misused?

I am still hopeful, but that’s why we restarted operations

• At that time, to make this concession to PCG, to ULFA through PCG, it was an act
of good intention?

Yes. I agree.

• But misplaced.

That’s why sometimes I say misjudgment, or that our assessment was wrong. But it was done with all the good intentions. It had another indirect effect. Because there was an impression we were not keen on talks. . .

• But do you sometimes regret that the PCG or ULFA took you for a ride? They bought time, regrouped, bought weapons, extorted money, and they are back.

I don’ regret, because we were giving them an opportunity. After all, we are living in a democracy and our whole idea was to bring these misguided youth to the negotiating table, to the mainstream. Whatever we did was with good intentions.

• But it turned out to be naive.

That’s also true, but first we wanted the knife to be blunted.

• Because the impression was that in any other part of the country, when insurgents talk of sovereignty, the Government of India says, ‘Go to hell. We will talk within the parameters of the Constitution.’ But in Assam, a small group, a few hundred people, they keep on talking of sovereignty and you keep on saying, ‘I’m willing to talk.’ It confuses us a great deal.

We have made it very clear that sovereignty is not negotiable. I have made it very clear, even the Prime Minister. In the very first meeting, when they talked about sovereignty, he reminded them that we are prepared to talk any issue, but you must remember that I am the servant of the Constitution.

• And you are saying it again very clearly, that if they insist on . . .

No. No talks

• If they talk of sovereignty, no talks.

No talks. That I have made it clear not only once, but repeatedly.

• And that you will say even in your behind-the-scenes contact with them?

Yes, I told you.

• No face-saver?

No question of face-saver. We have made it very clear if there are any issues for the welfare of the state, we are prepared to talk with you.

• But for the state as in the State of India?

Naturally.

• As a regular state of India? No Article 370, Article 371?

No, no.

• Is there any support within the population of Assam for that?

For sovereignty there is no support. They don’t have support.

• But we have seen opinion polls done for that.

No, absolutely there is no support.

• Some of the killings that ULFA has carried out, they have got the headlines with that. But do you think those killings are mainly responsible for them losing ground?

That is also true. You see, who are the victims? Most of the victims are innocent people. They have nothing to do with the ULFA or the government. Most of the victims are absolutely poor people, labourers, small shopkeepers.

• So when you go around the state, you find revulsion with this?

Yes. There is no doubt about it. Normally, many places we couldn’t go. Now we can go anywhere. I even went to Paresh Barua’s village.

• And yet there is a small group of intellectuals who sympathise with them?

Very small, very minute.

• When you talk to them, what do they say?

I don’t know them. But one good thing is that they speak out openly. Earlier they didn’t speak out. At the Sahitya Sabhas, the intellectuals speak out openly against ULFA.

• And many of them are threatened also.

Most of them are threatened.

• You find many journalists are threatened.

Journalists also. Bezbaruah. The topmost.

• Biren Bezbaruah. One of the most respected editors, not just in Assam but all of India.

All along, he has been threatened but nobody cares. Even the Sahitya Sabha president too, few editors too, have been threatened. There are people who speak out openly.

• But you are also known to have threatened some journalists? Some TV channel here, I keep reading.

No. I never threatened. That is the wrong impression going on. They made a charge that I payed Rs 5 crore to ULFA to buy peace for National Games. So I was angry with them.

• You didn’t buy peace for the National Games?

Why should I buy it?

• So what happened? How did ULFA become so reasonable so suddenly?

They realized, I think, that the people supported us. And before that all the preparations were going on. In fact, for this rehearsal of the opening ceremony, we needed only 2,000 school children, but one month before we had 5,000. So we had to send back 3,000 school children. All this training was going on for a month.

• So you are saying that ULFA realised there was so much popular support that if they had blocked the games it would go against them.

Yes

• Tell me one thing. You are a veteran politician, do you now regret that phase when you engaged them (militants) with talks, you gave them a long ceasefire. Then they misused that ceasefire and built up. Do you regret it? Do you think you could have done it differently?

We do regret sometimes. In fact, that is the case for others also. No, there was no ceasefire with the ULFA. That time, too, I was insisting that there should be a ceasefire. So it was unilateral for the first time.

• So was it too generous?

I don’t see it as a regret, because we have to give them an opportunity to realise also. It can expose their motive to the public also. And they definitely took advantage of that.

• So you have regret for that?

Yes, but at the same time, we have to see that we got an opportunity to expose them thoroughly.

• Because, before the elections, there was a feeling that your party was being soft on them.

There is no question of going soft. All along, our party has been a victim. Today they are making allegations. So why are Congress men are being killed? But there also all sort of propaganda. Amongst all the parties, our party has had the most victims.

• So you are saying categorically that you are maintaining no behind-the-scenes contact.

No.

• So how long do you see this phase continuing, how long before the Army and others are able to (move out)?

See, we have a three-pronged strategy. One is law & order. And I’ve also identified areas where they (militants) have hold. They may be border areas, backward areas. We have also identified school dropouts they have recruited. We have new scheme for those areas, so we can win them over.

• I believe you have a very innovative scheme. You give a computer to every school child who gets first division. But can you give them power also?

In one area, I was very happy to see a student’s mindset. When I came here first, the impression was no development can take place here so long as insurgency continues. I said, ‘No, development must proceed. We cannot wait till normalcy returns, and development will ultimately bring peace. Today I’m happy that the mindset of the younger people has changed. I gave a computer to one girl, and she said I come from a poor family, and I don’t have an electricity connection. I said you take money then, but she said, ‘No Sir, I don’t want money, I want electricity.’

• I can see some change. At least you have a new Secretariat. When I used to be a reporter here, this was a tea garden warehouse.

This is a very interesting story. This is when Mr Vajpayee was the Prime Minister. The Government of India didn’t want to release money for subsidy. One day, I told him in the presence of all the officers, ‘Sir, your officers don’t want me to be in a good secretariat, they want to see me in godowns. Subsequently, they released money.

• But do you have a tough time holding on to your good officers still? In Assam, there was a disease — good officers didn’t want to spend too much time here.

That is also true. Now the system is, they can go after two years and they are allowed to keep houses here.

• So they have a house here and a house there.

Yes. But I want power also. I say, until you work sincerely, I won’t release you.

• So what are you telling the Government of India now? First of all, are you expecting that with a changeover in Bangladesh, things will improve for you?

We are expecting that.

• And are you telling the Government of India now to put pressure on Bangladesh?

Yes, we are putting pressure.

• And what is your sense of what the Army is achieving in its operations related to ULFA?

The system was introduced first in Assam — it involved the Army, paramilitary forces, and Assam police, and it was complete co-operation, we exchanged intelligence, strategy, maps.

• But the claims that the Army is making, for example, of capturing people, killing people, are those genuine?

Our operation against ULFA or insurgency is mainly their job.

• And you see many story of excesses?

One or two case are there, but the moment we found them we took up the matter. There was a custodial death for which the person concerned was punished.

• But Assam has come a long way. You remember a time when even as an elected leader you could not visit a family occasion at your brother’s house.

Yes.

• Tell us little bit about those days.

In those days, AASU launched an agitation against foreigners. The impression was that we were only for the infiltrators. We are not for Assamese interests. So they gave a boycott call. A real boycott, where I could not visit my brother’s house and he could not visit me.

• So you were completely excommunicated.

But then, at the same time, we also realised that we were on the right path and we are
committed to our Congress ideology.

• And what changed that equation was the 1985 accord that Rajiv Gandhi signed with AASU.

It changed, but after that also it continued. At that time they started killing Congressmen and at that time I became the PCC chief. Rajiv Gandhi sent me here.

• So you were the target No 1?

I won’t say target No 1. But even then I could mobilise people and gradually I could go to their villages.

• But there was a social boycott?

Absolutely. There was social boycott for five years. It was a tough time, and mainly after 1983 it was the worst period.

• And it’s a compete change now, with 80 per cent voting sometimes in elections.

Now, the community that had a wrong impression, are my main supporters today.

• So take us back a little back to those days when Rajiv Gandhi chose you. I know there was a lot opposition within your party to that reconciliation.

You see, at that time there was an impression that there was no need to talk with AASU leaders, because the movement was dying down. But I was not for it. I was for some sort of a settlement. That time Rajiv Gandhi was the Prime Minister. I told him, ‘See changes there have been everywhere. Till 1985 insurgency had not crept into Assam, and I told him if you don’t bring these boys to the negotiating table, insurgency may crop up and once that happens, it will be a problem.

• Because the surrounding areas are Nagaland, Mizoram, and at that time it was a serious matter. But there was opposition from your own party.

Yes, they thought there was no need for it.

• And your party also thought that inevitably you would hand over power to AGP. I came to cover that election as a reporter. I remember the slogan used to be, “Congress party murdabad, Rajiv Gandhi zindabad.” But, effectively, you think that act of sagacity restored peace?

It not only restored peace, it brought a large number of people into the mainstream.

• So now you think Assam is a mainstream state.

That’s why, ultimately, we could come to power.

• From what I remember, there never ever was a strong separatist feeling. There was a feeling of alienation.

That’s true.

• Let me suggest that, maybe, that alienation is still a bigger challenge for you than the ULFA.

That’s why we are giving a lot of importance to economic development. Better industrialisation, better employment opportunities, so that the people feel that the Government of India is concerned. And that is true. Today, Manmohan Singh has brought in many projects.

• So this is the new Amethi.

Even Sonia Gandhi. One day she said, ‘See, your area has to be developed. On her own she told me.

• Thank you very much for finding time to talk.

Thank you.