‘Show change on the ground, people will join you’

All this while, I am sure, people said similar things. But this was never taken seriously because heritage, culture, were not popular issues. This time the fact — if I can put it that way — that the PM has chosen heritage and you over a very vital electoral alliance. It shows that this is now what elevated to a higher level in our thinking.
Yes. The preservation of history and heritage is really getting on top of the agenda. It is necessary also because it will improve the quality of life in India. Not only that it will enable us to maintain our heritage. You know India’s heritage is really unique and if you see the marks of the Indian civilisation, the marks of Indian culture, right from the pre-historic times — 7000 BC — and you see the intellectual heritage, the monumental heritage. You see the very powerful mind of India, the profound mind of India which produced these things. For example if you see the pre-historic era it depicts a great pattern of urban civilisation. You wonder where did this thought emerge from.

You know there was almost a take it or leave it option that was given to the Prime Minister. Remove Mr. Jagmohan or the alliance goes. Did this worry you, scare you, amuse you, embarrass you, upset you?
No I took it in a normal course. Well, I knew that what I was doing was only my duty. And there is nothing else that I can say further because the matter is in the court — sub judice.

That is true, but at the same time did you expect this kind of popular support for this.
No, not that much. I can say that it is very easy to become wise after these events. In the earlier stages I didn’t think that so much of support would be forthcoming for this.

But Taj Mahal is only one symbol. In fact this the biggest symbol of India’s heritage. But there are so many other heritage, which are in a mess. You know I have been to Mahabalipuram, the place stinks. Hampi, I believe, I’ve not been there, but I believe is in a very bad condition. You see monuments in ruins all over the country.
Now again, things have changed. For example, if you now go to Mahabalipuram, we have taken a lot of improvement steps there. In fact we have connected the Mahabalipuram shore temple with the Arjuna pinnage. And it has come out beautifully. It has a green area around it and all the slums have been relocated. In Hampi also. We have spent Rs 8 crore in Mahabalipuram, Rs 5 crore in Hampi.

But what is Rs 8 crore for a site like that. If Hampi were a site in European country, you know hundreds of millions of dollars would have gone into it. Look at the way Pompeii has been restored.
No, my point is that this is just the beginning. And this is also with a lot of impact. So, therefore, we have to go along with it there is no doubt about it.

But you agree that if Hampi was in Italy, they would have made it not just a huge money spinner but would have made it to a place to which it is so much more easier to reach.
Yes I agree. If you go by the past trend what you are saying might be true. But if we now take into account the new drive that we have launched, the new initiative that we have taken. I am sure that we will be able to do a better job than we had done earlier. In Pompeii… because when you see this area..

Like it is always said, when it comes to heritage do what the Romans do…
I agree. But we will definitely make sure that we are not lagging behind. So far the results we have achieved are very encouraging. We have made a lot of improvements in Red Fort and even the PM mentioned what has been done — the restoration work, the green development — all these monuments stand out. The heritage of Rome is different than that of course…

In what sense?
It is different in that it is in a different setting, different type of people go there.

How much money do you have to do all this every year?
Money in my view is just one of the factors.

Yes, but how much money do you have?
We have about Rs 325 crore.

Which is about $ 70 million. $70 million is what Italy, Germany or one of these countries would spend on?
I agree but we need to have competing demands with various other sectors such as power, everything. So the idea is to make best use of the resources.

I believe that the Vice President said the other day that you as a minister should get a special treatment now.
Yes, he said so. He took note of what has been done by us in Rajasthan. You may say that the fort condition is not good but we have made such a tremendous impact in Chittore, we are doing it in Jaisalmer, we are doing it in so many places in Rajasthan. We have beautified even Pushkar lake. All these improvements have created an awareness in the public…

You do that for a site like Taj Mahal or Hampi or Mahabalipuram or Chittore but what lies around the site… what happens when you come to place like Taj? The place stinks, the toilets stink, the toilet in Taj Express stinks.
Yes. I will explain…

You know you cannot parachute tourists to these sites and take them back.
Yes, that is why I have been saying there is a need to integrate elements of culture, clean civic life and tourism. This is necessary to produce the result and this result we have achieved in a palace like Red Fort and Ajanta. This is the model we have set up. These are the centres of excellence that we are creating which can be emulated by other agencies.

And what happens when tourists start coming and we don’t have aeroplane seats to bring them to India. And we don’t have airports where they will feel welcome and they will be looked after.
But the air connectivity is no doubt a problem. But we are trying to overcome it and now the number of tourists despite the terrorist activities, Iraq war and all that has been happening, our tourism has increased by 16 per cent.

But 16 per cent is what rate? Look at countries like Maldives, Italy, Austria, China, they get so many tourists than us.
Yes, but we have to see that we have such a large country. Our tourists move from state to state. They have got small countries. They move from one place to another and they are counted as tourists. Now that is why we are putting a lot of emphasis on domestic tourism also which is now a neglected field. Last year, we had three crore domestic tourists.

Are you bringing to bear your own moral strength, your own moral position. I would say to change something like, for instance, change civil aviation policy… I know you are a supporter of open skies policy…
We have been able to remove the wall of change in the areas of tourism, culture and so on. Now the Archaeological Survey of India is a dynamic organisation and you can see the kind of work that we have done in these areas.

But also one ministry that is resisting all ways of reform is the Ministry of Civil Aviation which actually functions like the Ministry for Air-India. And we all see what state Air-India is in.
No, we are doing our best to persuade them to fall in line with us and I think that they are coming now. My point is that by showing centres of excellence by producing results on the ground and then convincing the people that the authorities have themselves changed, so give them the money.

But when you say this, you look at a situation like what we have seen over the past few weeks. Now foreign airlines coming to India actually hiked their fares by 30 per cent. If you look at the High Commission in London, more visas are being issued than the seats available. People are coming via Dubai, via Muscat, via Kuwait.
Yes, that is true but it also proves that our destination is becoming more attractive.

What is the point of making destinations more attractive when we can’t get people to come in?
No, we are doing simultaneously, we are trying to do that. Of course it will take some more time. But still we are getting more tourists than what we were getting earlier. And this problem of air connectivity, with the changes that we are bringing, it will take some time to improve.

When you make this point as Minister for Tourism, I have people coming in but how do I bring them. What response do you get from your counterpart in Civil Aviation?
No, they say we do not have sufficient number of aeroplanes. We need to have reciprocity, and they are agreeing gradually.

It is a bit like saying in the old age that because Premier Padmini and Hindustan Motors do not produce enough cars— Fiat and Ambassadors — we cannot let Maruti, Ford, Hyundai to come in…
This is what we are trying to say that we should change more quickly. This is what my point is. We hope to succeed.

But are you getting somewhere with this?
Yes, we are getting somewhere with this.

On the question of general decay but our civic sense, our discipline, the way tourists are treated are treated in India…
Yes, I quite agree with you that cities, clean cities are absolutely must for good tourism. That is why I have laid a great deal of emphasis on improving the cities, improving the structures, improving these areas around these historical monuments. This is such a big problem. You were speaking of Rome. The problem is that we have a backlog of problems. So even if we do at the top speed as we are doing now, even then it will take quite some time for it to work. Now in Taj itself or the areas around Taj, this is something controlled by the civic bodies and is controlled by certain other agencies here. They are not so aroused. We have to work within the constitutional limitations.

So there is multiplicity…
There is multiplicity and constitutional limitation too. I cannot come directly and do something here.

If you were to start it, I don’t think anybody can stop you.
But there are impediments. Wherever I could do it, I have done it.

I believe we are having a large number of domestic tourists coming into Kurukshetra.
Very large number. The basic point that we are making is that if we make our destinations good, the product must be good. This will draw more people. And since we have made Kurukshetra a very good product, very attractive to modern man, by giving all amenities there and concentrating our activities there, we are interpreting our own culture which can be easily understood by the common man.

Does this political class understand heritage? We are standing in front of the Taj Mahal which was in great danger. How come it took so long for an alarm to be raised?
This is an issue as I had said earlier which I would not like to talk upon as the matter is subjudice. But the issue is a total heritage issue.

But even as an Indian don’t you feel embarrassed?
Yes, the issue is that when we have the heritage issue and we are making people realise…

Yes, but I as an Indian feel embarrassed that this came this far. Do you, as an Indian, feel embarrassed that this came this far?
Yes I do feel embarrassed in the sense that this issue came so far but the point is that this was stopped effectively. That is also an achievement.

Yes, but it is also a tribute to the Supreme Court.
All those people who put their best foot forward in taking this positive step.

You were in Singapore recently and you promised so many national parks, 3000 monuments, even sanctuaries, how come we are not attracting any private investment?
No this takes a little time. Especially, when it comes to attracting private investments in this area. People come and survey and they make calculations, which takes some time. I am sure that people will come in due course.

But you are saying that your focus is still domestic tourism.
My focus is both. But domestic tourism has been totally neglected in the past as if it is not contributing anything. Domestic tourism, in my view, can contribute a great deal in economic advancement of India and also for making people aware of this great heritage. You yourself say, we are neglecting our heritage, we are not conscious of our cleanliness. Now if I set up a model in Kurukshetra then all people go there and appreciate it. Vaishnodevi is a classic example of that. Now you see that the people are not damaging it.

Yes, but somehow people identify monuments in India with two things — one is stink and the second is graffiti on the walls. So and so loves and so and so visited here. In fact I have seen in monuments in Iran and there you will find some odd Indian name written on it. It seems like an Indian habit.
No, this is what I am emphasising over and over again that India requires a social and cultural revolution and change in attitude in the society as a whole. You and me don’t constitute the society. Ninety per cent of people are those who are not socially responsible and it is only by example…

Each time, there is lack of care, tourists being chased by all kinds of characters, their clothes being pulled, all this happens in India.
It is both ways because of lack of social responsibility among the general people and the other thing is lack of firmness in dealing with the matter by authorities.

Yes, but that is something that you can do little about. Because all of these are under the purview of the states.
We are making best efforts, our idea is to do the best. Aap kah rahe the na mai akele chal raha tha… but then people will come after us.

Then the idea is that if you are working on heritage sites and encouraging domestic tourism, maybe then that can bring in an element of pride.
That is my effort. When we make improvements… we have made one or two in every state. For example, Haryana is a drastic example of what we have achieved.

And Haryana was a state nobody identified with heritage.
So, these type of activities will help us in…

And also to tell people that your past is nothing to be embarrassed about.
No, in fact the past is something to be proud about. This is what we want to tell the people.

Do you find that some states are more enthusiastic and more supportive than others.
That is true but I have tried my best to make every state to fall in line. And almost everybody is responding properly.

Except UP the other day?
No, the only point is that the bureaucratic machinery is such that it creates so many problems. This is mine, that is yours, that is how it goes.

But I hope that as a former bureaucrat, you will be able to break through this.
That is what I am trying to achieve. One thing that I can legitimately claim credit is for the fact that we have enforced a new kind of governance in this area in which all the functionaries are brought under one roof. I myself go. The administration is more creative, more focussed, more conceptive and more result-oriented.

I will say two things. One that I am happy to say that even if the government changes in 2004, we are happy to have you as our permanent Tourism and Culture Minister. Irrespective of what demands — what Mayawati makes any good day — you find the fullest support. You have made tourism and culture a popular national issue. And second, it is a very good theme that you have now embarked upon — be it pride in the past — so as to build hope for the future. Until people value their past they will never value their heritage.
I agree. When I was shifted from Urban Development Ministry, I was very unhappy.

You have been a victim of electoral politics.
Maybe, whatever… the point that I am trying to make is that this is an area where you can bring in many changes.

The point I am making is earlier you were a victim of electoral politics. Today, the way the heritage is seen, you have defied electoral politics.
No I won’t say that. You have to change the attitude of the people. You do same positive concrete work and show it on the ground. When the result is seen then only will the people come after you..