Choosing to be a Childfree Woman in India ft. Amrita Nandy

And so I could not be more delighted to have you on the show. Thanks so much for joining us. I'd like to start by asking a little bit about your own personal ideological journey. You came to this research asking this question of [00:01:00] yourself. Do I or do I not wish to be a mother, right? Could you take us a little bit through that process of self reflection?

Thank you so much, Leeza. Such a pleasure and honor to be here to be talking to you. So, um, Leeza, as a child, my view on motherhood was quite starry eyed. I was really moonstruck. I loved playing with babies and I still do tremendously. And I remember role play games with, um, my little girlfriends, um, play acting as the mother to, um, the neighbor's baby, to plastic dolls.

Uh, and since all the adults around had their own children, I, I grew up assuming that motherhood was inevitable. It was desirable. It was aspirational. Um, my interest in researching motherhood has, has another personal beginning. Uh, I grew up watching my, my mother, my homemaker mother. She was [00:02:00] constantly in character, as I say in the book.

Um, sometimes even in, in her other roles, uh, you know, she would eat last. She still does. She still waits for me at the meal table. Um, so, uh, what one comes across many such mothers, I'm sure you have too, that they're all the same flavor - as it were, right? Flavored by what I call "maternormativity". We can get to the term a little later.

Or they're playing a script that's offered by society, um, this whole mammalian body mind which is wired to protect the child. And I observed, um, as a young girl, I observed how, how women's lives - especially of mothers was really, um, monopolized by different forms of caregiving, not just mothering as, as a form of caregiving, uh, and, and I noticed how much women juggle, how much they struggle with, [00:03:00] with paid employment, with care work at home, dividing up their waking hours and in two or three shifts of daily labor, they're exhausted in, in this sort of relentless caregiving and regardless of whether women are full time homemakers or part time workers in paid employment. Most of them, most of us, are expected to regard, uh, caregiving to the family as, as primary duty. Uh, and they, they downplay or we downplay our other aspirations, our other capabilities or responsibilities. And some regret having to abandon certain aspects of, of their pre motherhood life, such as careers, friendships.

Or sometimes even just leisure and rest. Um, so this is what, this is what I was, I was watching, uh, through the years as I was growing up. And all of this then, um, came up to, to me when, um, when I was married. And, and I had [00:04:00] this, I had to face this question. And, I mean, you mentioned it already. I definitely want you to explain to people who haven't yet read your book, what maternormativity is.

I think it does factor into all aspirations. Even, even for us, uh, who choose to reject the role of motherhood, it's hard to escape that conditioning. Absolutely! You said it! Um, the, the term maternormativity, it's, I, I cooked it up. And it's not a very, uh, pretty word, but I think it, it does its job, which is to, to communicate this, um, this paradigm, the dominant paradigm that identifies women as potential mothers, all women as potential mothers, symbolic mothers or as maternal.

So maternormativity is really two conjoined words. Mater, which stands for mother and normativity is, is the state of being normative or of the norm. It's the assumption that all those born [00:05:00] females. are and must be naturally maternal and thereby motherhood and mothering and all other forms of caregiving come naturally to them, uh, and therefore should be their main pursuits in life.

And this, this hype around, uh, maternormativity or, or the maternalization of female identity is very disempowering. It's disempowering, not just for, for women, but also for girls and mothers. Um, I'll start, I'll start with girls first because from a young age, I think we're, um, we're socialized, we're groomed for marriage and motherhood.

And if, if you're lucky for education and career, so most girls and women can never even come to think of motherhood as choice. It's, it's this strong cultural muscle that's flexed in our faces, in the faces of girls. So they, they see little else. And this, it robs little girls of their ability growing up to fully imagine and live out [00:06:00] their authentic true selves.

And what can be worse than stubbing someone's imagination as they're growing up or crippling their agency? Uh, because even questioning motherhood is like, is like sacrilege. Uh, for mothers, I think, um, a maternormative culture, which is what, which is what our culture is, which is what most cultures across, um, countries, is that it controls, um, our motivations, our actions.

Even our attitudes towards, say, paid employment. We know that mothering is often, it's just euphemism for single handed care. Where are the men, um, in, in the day to day care of children in, in, yeah, in childcare. Yet mothers live with, uh, with what is often called maternal guilt. It's that ceaseless feeling of, of never doing enough or the best for one's child.

And you see on blogs, there are heartbreaking accounts of how mothers are judged or judge themselves. Policed and policed themselves by [00:07:00] their own partners, school teachers. And so this is, this is really, uh, the maternormative. And for those who are unable to have children, maternormativity can often lead to great personal trauma, social difficulties, a sense of failure, emptiness, shame stigma in urban families with women professionals, the pressure to be a mother may have lessened somewhat, but this does not represent the larger social attitude towards, towards motherhood. So, um, it's not just prevalent in India. I think it's, it's, um, among those very rare, 

I'd love for you to expand on that a bit more, because I think we don't sufficiently, sufficiently question the romanticization of the mother, right? We talked about how it feels almost sacrilegious to question it, even women themselves. police, such thoughts, police, each other's thoughts. If you are a bad mother, if you ever admit to feeling, um, ambivalence, let alone disinterest or regret [00:08:00] around having had children or just the idea of having children.

And so I think that for most women, um, and you talk about this in the book as well, is it even a choice, right? If it's presented to you. In the way that it is. Are you even making a choice? Even when you think you're making a choice. I think that's such an interesting question and one that we're not encouraged to ask at all.

And I also wonder whether you'd like to expound on the fact that this romanticization of motherhood isn't as, um, sort of harmless. And innocuous and lovely as it seems because there are forces of capitalism and religion and and patriarchy that that by design seek to control women's choices, right? And this is very much a part of that nexus.

But by guising it in this sort of like, you know, um, haloed, a beatific vision of motherhood kind of makes what's quite sinister, much more palatable to most of us. Absolutely. You've [00:09:00] said it so beautifully, Leeza. Um, but before answering the question of, of the romanticization of motherhood, let's, let's speak of the what.

I think it's useful to, to know just what kind of motherhood gets romanticized and why. Um, motherhood in a heterosexual setting where a man and woman get married, especially within a socially approved - caste, class, religious setting - that is seen as, as the ideal setting that deserves romanticization. So non marital, uh, motherhood or, you know, motherhood that's out of wedlock, for example, that's the term they use, is not romanticized.

And single adoptive mothers are not held, um, as high in esteem as, as married women who give birth. And also in a majoritarian culture, which is what India's turned out to be, unfortunately, minority motherhood is demeaned, even though within the minority subculture motherhood could be [00:10:00] romanticized. So, there is this hierarchy of sorts, unacknowledged, uh, not fully, not fully unspoken, I'd say, but it lurks in, in discourse, it lurks in, in attitudes.

It's also fascinating to pay attention to the contexts of motherhood. The romance around motherhood actually begins with the institutional marriage. which itself is a substantive norm. We're all expected to marry, especially women, um, so that our bodies, our sexuality can be policed. Marriage is seen as an ideal setting for the expression of love, of romance, sexuality and family making.

And here too, the norm is that marriage and motherhood take place within, like you said, a patriarchal setting. where the woman marries into the husband's family, takes on his name, uh, and then, and then the children, um, then belong to that patrilineal, uh, line and so on and so forth. So it is in, in such contexts, uh, it is these certain forms of motherhood [00:11:00] that, that are romanticized.

Now, now about the, the romanticization piece. It's also a mother's labor at childbirth, I think it begins there. And then the subsequent decades of caregiving labor that are romanticized as her sacrifice. Even though there's very little talk of what all this, um, this role can jeopardize, such as the other pursuits that she may have put aside.

And like I said earlier, maternal guilt is also in a sense. a manifestation of the romanticization of the role whereby you feel you can never do enough for the child. Um, and, and this, this feeling, this annoying feeling is it resembles regret. It's, it's this unbridgeable gap between the idealized mother and the real mother.

Um, the romanticization is done through norms, social norms, cultural norms that have been put in place to regulate our [00:12:00] choices as women and to engineer these, these systems to reproduce, to reproduce biologically, to reproduce socially, human societies and, and where do these norms live? They live in our everyday conversations, uh, with each other in film, poetry, song, mythology, blogs and so on.

I think our own behaviors, uh, reiterate and nourish these norms. Um, let's think of early marriage, say early marriage in some communities is a norm because those who hold part in that community, say village elders, are worried about the sexuality of young girls. Um, there could be legends or myths about late marriage leading to infertility and childlessness.

Or there are cuss words, you know, words like "Baanjh". "Baanjh" is a Hindi word for barren woman. It's, it's an expletive. So, so you see how language, the medical industry of fertility clinics, for example, they glorify human birth over adoption of children for the purpose of [00:13:00] their own profits. So the discourse of and around motherhood, that is a source.

And the side of this romanticization, it suits the market. It suits the state. Of course, it suits the patriarchal family. Men, if women were to keep devoting most of their lives to only or primarily bearing and raising children. Exactly! And I think that it's so important for us, even if we do choose to be mothers, to be informed of and questioning of.

all of this that surrounds the construction of it as an injunction rather than a true choice. Um, but I want to also sort of unpack the ideas of child free versus child less. Sure. No, that, that's an important one. And we often very loosely use these words interchangeably, and it's important to know the distinction.

So in popular lingo, Leeza, those who are without children are referred to as child less. However, some [00:14:00] among these so called childless could be so intentionally, um, but the term childless paints over this rather crucial distinction. So as a way to mark the intentionally childless as separate, there have been other terms in existence.

Uh, terms such as childless by choice or voluntarily childless, but I found both of these terms, uh, um, slightly problematic because these expressions use the suffix less in childless, so childless by choice or voluntarily childless. To me, childless, Childless implies, um, an incompleteness, a deficit in an individual's life or their identity as if they lack something they ought to have.

So I prefer to use the term child free. I came across the term in, in other books that I read on the subject, so I adopted, um, this, this term for my own use. I like child free because it's affirmative, uh, unlike [00:15:00] the negative childless. And so to adopt and claim the child free label is to also make a political statement, right?

It's, it's paradigm bending that statement. It means I do not pity myself and I would not want you to see me as childless. Um, and, um, I do not accept the child bearing or rearing is the ultimate purpose of my life. Um, and I see many more fulfilling, beautiful, nurturing roles for me, including caregiving for those.

And yet there's sort of unique stigmas that attach themselves to both the state of childlessness when you want children but can't have any, you mentioned the word banj, um, as well as to those who are child free because that's the state of being that they have chosen, right? Um, and it's funny how sometimes the same, um, sort of shame becomes attached to both.

States for women, unfortunately, [00:16:00] this fear of judgment. And then there's so much nuance in your book. And I think that sometimes a simplistic, you know, pro natalist versus anti natalist sort of discourse on social media or something, uh, misses so much of that nuance. And I'd love for you to just elaborate a little bit further on this issue of childless versus child free, because I think you bring out the nuances off and the stigma, which in a way it comes.

To both, um, locuses from mater, a mater normativity, right? Whether you choose not to have children or you cannot have children, um, because of an infertility, you're unable to be a mother and therefore you're not good enough. No, that's that's such a fine question. And I'm so happy you you put the binary out there.

To speak against pronatalism is not to be an antinatalist. One is not saying we all stop having children. All one is saying is recognize. Um, deeply, um, the pressure, the mandate, the [00:17:00] imperative, where does it come from, who does it benefit, and what does it cost women? We're, we're saying this so that there's better public infrastructure.

We're saying this so that women are able to live their lives in as fulsome a manner as, as possible. That's the intention. The intention really isn't what it's often, um, painted out to be. Um, but to answer your question, I'll I'll begin with myself. Um, I was faced with with, you know, with the usual, um, milestones of education, career, marriage, motherhood.

Um, and I found great insights. into womanhood, um, at each of these, you know, reading literature, for example, reading about women's lives, gender, career, marriage, each of these offered very eye opening experiences and counter narratives to what films or popular discourse had [00:18:00] portrayed motherhood as. And so I faced some very thought provoking questions like, um, why did I want a child?

We very often fantasize about having children, and I did too, and I still love children, but we very rarely subject this desire to thought. Very rarely do we question deeply, um, and when I, when I reflected on, on the meaning and the implications of motherhood, I realized that I did not have Uh, any substantive reasons except mush and hope that the child will bring meaning, the child will bring more love, the child will bring the opposite of loneliness.

And yet all around me, I saw that this expectation from the child bringing full, such fulfillment was not really the case. Many children were. Or are disinterested in or are unable to take care of their parents [00:19:00] or whatever reason, or the relationships don't turn out as imagined or hoped, or hoped. And so my motherhood dream had been pricked by, by, by the reality that I saw around me.

And I started to think of it as yet another human experience. that was rather self serving, uh, like all other, uh, human projects, and, and not quite thought through. I thought motherhood was a gamble as well, like, uh, like romance or like marriage. And I realized also that raising a child is a very serious, ought to be a very serious And demanding responsibility.

And if I were to become a mother adoptive, or biological, perhaps, perhaps adoptive than biological, I too will want to give it my all. But to create a human being and then to give them your all, just to meet some of my own emotional needs, seems like a very [00:20:00] untenable, um, equation, especially when there are other.

I would say less demanding means available to to address some of my needs. And of course, those means may or may not deliver. But what is the guarantee that the child will? But if you tell folks that you choose to be without children, they tend to see you as abnormal and your decision is. As going against a so called, uh, natural imperative or a natural call, uh, you could be questioned and, uh, even warned about your wrong decision.

People can take it upon themselves to cure you of your problem and do your supposedly wrong choice. I recall a child free woman, a rather successful professional telling me. that she's had to make extra effort to come across as kind and soft and polite and caring because people, some people won't see her like that.

Another child free woman I spoke to shared how [00:21:00] a friend, also a neighbor, hid her pregnancy from her, from the child free woman, till as long as the tummy didn't become big. Perhaps because she felt some discomfort or suspicion, or had a bad feeling about her child freeness. Another child free woman said she was not allowed to hold a baby by her mother, who thought ill of her child free status.

And these are all, um, educated, um, highly educated, most of them, these women. I strolled about a certain, um, subtle, sometimes in your face, exclusion from certain social circles. Uh, to not be invited to a kid's birthday party just because you've openly shared that you don't want to be a, to be a mother, which is somehow always read as you don't like children, which is one of the most strongest, uh, taboos they could ever be.

Um, the fascinating [00:22:00] aspect here is the conclusion reached about this very conclusion reached about the child free that they do not like children and disliking children is. Um, it's just not acceptable and admitting it can make, make things really bad. It's like a taint on one's character, like places you in the devil's company.

Um, when surprisingly the truth could be very, very far from this. You may adore children, but you may not want to be a parent to a child. The two are distinct, very, very distinct. And yet, I mean, it should also be okay to be disinterested in children, you know, you don't even have to adore children and choose to be child free.

You can just, I don't really, children don't do anything for me. I don't think I'm evil. Dogs do a lot for me. Um, but I think we need to erase that stigma and be honest about it because Even women who are not particularly interested in children must pretend that they are right. And so I think it's very important that we be more open about our ambivalence or disinterest.

Also, we don't even have to adore [00:23:00] children, you know, it's okay. I'm not going to harm children, but I don't, I'm not going to go out of my way to hang out with them either. Um, and that's okay. So just putting that out there, since I can, since I have the privilege to be able to be honest about that. Uh, but I do want to also unpack some of the double standards and hypocrisy around our, um, societal glorification of motherhood and children, which I think you touched upon, but I'd love to hop on it because it's.

So we're so inconsistent, right? You said that we only approve of mothers who have their children within a, an endogamous heterosexual marriage. Um, you know, if you're a single mother having a child outside of marriage, if you're a queer mother who wants a child without a husband, if you are a, you interviewed sex workers who are mothers, um, suddenly.

Our love for motherhood and children and respect for those roles is missing, is conspicuously absent, and we disadvantage people who might want to be mothers who don't conform to the idea of the [00:24:00] normative good mother, right? So where's our meta normativity now, huh? You know? And I think that we're not questioning enough of those very sort of sinister, um, structural, Biases and who gets to who gets to be the good mother, right?

And I think that your book is so wonderful and in bringing together those who are child free by choice, along with those who are non normative mothers, because those are both forms of resistance. So I'd love to hear also about the insights from your research and conversations with these uncommon mothers.

Because we haven't yet really dived into that. That nuance is very important. That women as mothers, from within the motherhood tent as it were, are rebelling and have rebelled. And are trying to reimagine what motherhood as an institution and mothering as a practice. Should be or ought to be and to offer you an example, like I can [00:25:00] think of the voluntary adoptive mother or couple and I call them voluntarily adoptive because these are women or couples who chose to adopt not because of some biological incapacity, but because they wanted to adopt.

It was a political statement, an emotional decision. Um, an emotional psychosocial decision for them, um, to, to have a child who does not come from their genetic lot. Um, so that's, that's the, that's the politics they wanted to put out there, that love and belonging and kinship has nothing to do with, um, genetic ties.

So the voluntarily adoptive mother or couple has. Uh, which could be a part of the motivation to adopt. However, for those who wanted their voluntary adoption to help [00:26:00] loosen the hold of the pronatalist paradigm, to reformulate kinship beyond bodily connection, I think their message can get lost in the noise around real proper motherhood.

With the single adoptive mother, um, single women who adopt children, the metanormative lens sadly. It pits them against the, again, the, the ideal of the conjugal procreative family, the married family. So they come out looking small, um, to some. For the sex worker mother also, I, there's both internal and external pressures from, again, Now, since the sex worker and her child do not belong to the conjugal monogamous procreative unit that's legit as per patriarchy, they can face a lifelong stigma.

They're denied basic human dignity and rights. Sex workers are assumed to be immoral, [00:27:00] incapable of care, but I came across fascinating accounts from sex workers trying to bend norms. And in the process, create more, more liberating definitions of who is the good mother. Yeah, I think that, um, what's so sort of dissonant about some of the ideologies around motherhood and who and good motherhood is that there's this sort of charm circle of legitimacy, right?

So if you're single, but, um, you're adopting a child then it's kind of good optics or like what a what an altruistic person if you're single and you had sex and you have a pregnancy and you go through with it but you don't get married or the man abandons you or you abandon the man or whatever that's not so that's not so um sort of acceptable in the social mores of of good motherhood right um and then on the other hand you know the sex worker mother even if she's doing the sex work so that she can support her child, um, isn't a good mother, because again, mothers aren't meant to be [00:28:00] sexual.

We're like, constantly, you are never a good mother, basically, right? Never a good enough mother, unless you are the property of your male spouse who gets to determine, you know, everything about your sort of reproductive choice, as it were, right? Oh, that's the, that's the kind of template, unfortunately, in 2023, that we're still stuck with.

And, and interestingly, the Um, fertility industry and reproductive technology kind of reiterates this whole very patriarchal pronatalist lens in quite a disturbing way. I think again, we're not able to be honest about this because we, you know, doctors are another group of people you cannot criticize in this country, right?

Um, we, we do not criticize medicine. We do not criticize motherhood. I think it's really worth asking about the ethics of some of this stuff. Um, I think pronatalism it's Self is so highly coercive. Um, and at, at [00:29:00] so many levels, um, individually, collectively, symbolically, subtly, um, conspicuously. Um, and so besides religion and culture, which, which gave pronatalism, it's moral, it's moral currency.

It's, it's righteous high ground. Um, uh, there's also, like you said, very rightly, the, the medical industry, uh, interestingly in India with the cutting edge medical technology and, and the market, they've, they've sort of milked, milked hard this, uh, this collective sort of, uh, deprivation of life without children.

And ARTs, especially surrogacy, till, uh, at least it was commercially available in India some, some years ago, has a very, um, has had a very pernicious, um, a very substantive uh role to play in this [00:30:00] obsession, in fueling this obsession of ours. And so technology, we can see how, how technology can actually, um, denaturalize conception, um, on the ideological level, but also it can accentuate and exaggerate, um, embodied motherhood, glorify it.

So it's, it's playing both those. those roles. But I want to say how maternormativity or the maternalization of a female identity actually also harms men. It denies men the chance to fully experience the parent child journey. Men do get tied to toxic gender roles. I mean, a small example is the government of India's child care leave.

Just some years ago, it could only be availed by by women with children, not men with children. So if my partner and I both work with the state or the central [00:31:00] government, only I could take the child care leave. Um, of course, they finally included the, the, the single male parent, um, who has say lost his wife to death or divorce or has a disabled wife.

For men whose wives are able bodied and, uh, you know, functional family members, it is only they, the wives, who could get the childcare leave. So that's really the, the institutionalization of the metronormative by the state. So, so the metronormative is, is. like a concentric circle, one among the many concentric circles of patriarchy.

Let's talk about some of the reasons for choosing to be child free. Yeah, I think these are to understand the reasons for women's child freeness. It may be helpful to know who. who these child free women are because they're not your every woman. So from my research, from my small [00:32:00] research, it seems that the child free, uh, woman in India comes from a middle to upper class milieu.

And, uh, almost all of them, the ones that I met, had the privilege of good education, very often higher education, successful careers, um, and or strong interests. with public and socially engaged lives and possibly exposure to Western ideas, ideologies, which means they may not be so traditional minded. And so it seems that their, their widened horizons offered them much else that brought meaning to their life and that brought self worth and interest and paths to what one could call a higher calling.

Thank you. Motherhood is often placed, uh, in, in that hallowed realm of, of higher calling. And, and it's [00:33:00] these other avenues of meaning, uh, that seemed to them more or as exciting and as fulfilling as motherhood. Um, and so reasons for these women's childfearness, uh, lie mostly, I think, in They're having found these enriching avenues to devote their lives to, rather than devoting all of one's resources and decades in raising a child or two.

What also struck me about, um, about these child free women is that they seem acutely aware of how motherhood, specifically in a country such as India, plays out. They see it as, uh, without any filters of romance, as it were. They see it for what it is. Rather than for, um, what it, uh, is glorified to be, they, they see it as rather demanding because very often looking after children is a woman's job.

The male partner is absent from active day to [00:34:00] day hands on care. If you're lucky to have money, you can hire childcare, or, um, if you're lucky to have parents around who can help, you can outsource some pieces of childcare to them at times. But for most Indian families, in the absence of state centered, um, public childcare, childcare is a daily, very tiring scramble, um, because there's a paid job to do that very day, uh, for the next five to six days or seven days if you're a domestic worker or from the working class.

So, earning and raising children simultaneously, as we know, takes a village and much money. And the child free lot knows this too well, and, and they seem to say no, thank you to this to this kind of life. Personally, I think there are also deeper philosophical reasons and spiritual benefits to child freeness.

That I'd really like to talk about. I think we humans [00:35:00] live mostly in a state of dissatisfaction, despite having made effort and pursued what we think will bring us happiness and peace. It's not to say that human life only equals pain. Lives are, of course, interspersed with joy, with pleasure, maybe pockets of peace.

But this dissatisfaction emerges with every experience of our lives because nothing stays joyful. Uh, impermanence is, as the wise ones say, uh, the most profound truths that we forget about or like to forget about. And afraid of this uncertain future, anxious about loneliness, disease, old age, we keep clinging to the hope that children will offer tender love and the best of care.

But look around and you'll see that for a number of reasons, this does not happen. We're deluded in thinking that a child, or a relationship, or a job, or a new house, or a vacation, other [00:36:00] experiences, possessions, will and can, um, take away, um, these, you know, this, this sort of existential pain that lies at the base of every human phenomena.

So we do not have to be surprised or pained that children turn out unloving or unavailable. Or we do not have, or we do not have to paint parenting as a, as a source of only love and care. So, um, I think it's wise to accept it and then make informed choices. Um, especially heavy duty ones, such as parenthood, it's, it's emotionally, environmentally a very heavy duty one.

I couldn't agree more. I think, I mean, today we're asking why some people choose not to have children. I think most people who have children never really ask why they're having children. Um, so I encourage anyone who thinks they want to be a parent to think long and hard. It also strikes me as, Peculiar that when you want to adopt a child, there's so much due diligence done.

But when you just want to have [00:37:00] a child, I mean. Everyone can just have a child. Um, I think there would be far fewer problems in the world if we were, if, if people were better parents. But anyway, um, I do think that as we wrap, it would be wonderful to convey a sense to those who may not have had the chance to really think about alternative models of.

Meaning and kinship and belonging to some extent, having a child seems like the answer to like, why are we here? What is my purpose on earth? Uh, how can I have a meaningful life? And surely there are also many other wonderful answers to those questions. And I think, uh, you have a lot of very illuminating insights on, on that sense of meaning beyond just motherhood.

Love to wrap with those. Um, to that, I'd say, uh, Leeza, that, um, it's important for us to first be able to break away, break [00:38:00] free from this absolute imperative that all women must become mothers. Uh, that we must acknowledge that there is choice. that motherhood is really choice. It's not mandate or imperative, although it certainly feels like that.

And how do we break free from this absolute imperative? I think we can do that by, um, by talking more authentically about motherhood as an institution and mothering as an experience. But this can happen only if we allow women, especially mothers, the agency to say it as it is, if we stop judging them, if we stop mocking and shaming them, if they were to speak of, say, regretting motherhood or regretting some pieces of being a mother.

But it's clearly very, nearly impossible to do that. So this cultural mandate to become a mother can suppress or does suppress. It suppresses [00:39:00] women's individuality. It suppresses agency or decision making, um, decision making that's based on your own particular unique life, your context, your personal, uh, and social context.

It, it shuts you towards the many other sources. or sites of nourishment and fulfillment. So we need to counter to, to subvert this pressure, this, this air that we live and breathe and crack this imaginary and we can break free. I think from this. Perhaps from this mirage, perhaps by reading, uh, uh, women's accounts, um, by reading literature, demystifying the whole, um, romance around the blood tie.

By not seeing blood ties as beyond conflict, as beyond critique. all things sugar and honey, but by knowing that motherhood is deeply overrated, um, by accepting [00:40:00] the love and care needs to be nurtured, can be nurtured across relationships. across species, um, regardless of whether that heart beats with my blood or yours.

So, so it's really undoing our own obsession with biological ties, which can help sort of spotlight the other avenues of care, of companionship. nurturing. Um, but lastly, I think we must also, um, simultaneously, uh, develop women's autonomy, their agency, so that they can envision for themselves. These alternatives that are as emotionally appealing, fulfilling as, as motherhood, um, and arguably more socially oriented.

And so that then, and if motherhood is still what they want, it is truly a choice. Absolutely. And a beautiful one. One must say that motherhood and [00:41:00] parenthood and parenting is, is a meaningful site. And, uh, his, um, and, and care because care is such. a precious and scarce commodity. It's, it's, it's, it's a good choice.

Um, as long as women haven't been coerced, as long as women know what they are getting into, as long as, um, our socio political cultural context provide the kind of support that women and children need for responsible citizens in the country. Thank you so much, Amrita. It's been such a pleasure talking to you, and I could talk to you all day, but, um, I at some point have to stop asking questions, even though I have so many more.

So to anyone watching, I wholeheartedly recommend that you get this book and read it. It will make you think and think and think again. Thank you so much for joining us on Love Matters. To everyone who's tuned in as well, I hope that you will rate this book. Episode, wherever you're listening, shared [00:42:00] with your friends, leave a comment.

You can write into us at lovemattersatdw. com. And until next time, this is me, Leeza Mangalda, signing off. Love Matters is produced by the Indian express and DW Germany's international broadcaster. We believe love matters.

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