‘Let them (Centre) try to keep troubling us, we will keep working…’, says Manish Sisodia

As Deputy Chief Minister, Manish Sisodia virtually runs the Delhi government. He is AAP chief Arvind Kejriwal’s closest confidante and presides over the several important departments including finance, education, revenue, information technology, services and planning. He is a two-time MLA from the Patparganj constituency. As the Centre and the AAP government in Delhi lock horns over appointments of bureaucrats and policy, Sisodia is seen as the key figure in negotiations between the two. His diplomatic skills will come into play when the AAP needs Centre’s support to push its agenda in Delhi

Apurva: How different is your current stint in power from your previous, 49-day government?

Of course, there is a mathematical difference — 28 seats vs 67 seats. Now, we have experience, unlike those 49 days in government. We are also confident now. Last time, we would think, if we take any step, how will the Opposition react? We lacked confidence because we didn’t have the majority. The confidence of having a majority now reflects in our thinking, planning and execution.

Apurva: You have been at constant war with the Central government, whether it is over delegation of power or the Centre’s notification on the Anti-Corruption Bureau. Last week, your CM said you have two Home secretaries, two ACB chiefs. What is your gameplan?

In the last 3-4 months, efforts have been made to keep us engaged, drain our energy and create troubles for us. Let them try to keep troubling us, we will keep working. The party at the Centre has been reduced to three seats in Delhi at a time when everybody was talking about a wave. Now, they are doing their politics. Our politics is to work.

But I also feel that because of the struggle with the Centre, we are becoming stronger. What work we want to do, that is being done. We came to power on the anti-corruption plank. We have committed to build 500 schools, but by the end of our five-year term, say, we set up 400 schools, or 450 or 550 schools. The 500 figure doesn’t matter to people. Everyone wants schools, colleges, hospitals. But corruption is such an issue that even if one person has to pay a bribe to get his work done, then he would be disappointed. The basic difference between AAP and the other party is our commitment to end corruption. That’s the challenge for (the BJP). So they may allow us to do other work but they will try their best to stop us from doing work on the anti-corruption issue.

In the first two months, the ACB performed very well and we started gaining confidence. Like in the first 49-day government, people started fearing that they would be caught. I myself raided schools. In Delhi Jal Board, in municipal corporations, engineers were caught. People started fearing that they would be caught if they did anything wrong. These people want to end this fear and therefore we see drama in the ACB.

Coomi Kapoor: Aren’t the people of Delhi suffering because of this confrontation with the Centre? Don’t you think you have to live within the rules formulated for UTs?

That is what we have been saying. Follow the rules. Whether it is the Constitution, the GNCTD Act, Transaction of Business Rules, everywhere it is clearly written that except for police, public order and land, all subjects have been transferred to the Delhi government. But the Centre would say that vigilance department and transfer/posting services comes under them. So who is not following the rules. Us or them? They are not following the Constitution. I challenge them to show us where it is written that services comes under the Centre. Vigilance (department) is under the Delhi government. There was an order of 1964 when vigilance was taken out of police. The chief secretary was made the head of the vigilance department instead of IG Police. And if you keep drawing the line, you will see that ACB was always part of the vigilance department and the Delhi government. In a 1984 order, it has been clearly stated that Directorate of Vigilance Department would be the head of the ACB. You are transferring and posting officials without asking the head of the department. And then we are questioned why rules are not being followed.

Apurva: Last month, you met Home Minster Rajnath Singh twice. When you pose these questions, what is the response you get? Do you get assurances?

He gives a very good smile and assures us every time that ‘theek ho jaayega, chinta mat karo’. He says, ‘I’ll manage it, I’ll fix things’. So we come back full of high hopes. We start thinking that everything will be fine. He is a nice man par pata nahin unki kitni chalti hai (Don’t know how of a say he has).

Apurva: Have you chalked out a plan for delivering the promises in the 70-point manifesto? Because without the involvement of the Urban Development Ministry (UD) or Home Ministry and other Central ministries, it may not be possible to get your work done.

Work has started on many projects. We are discussing some issues with the UD ministry such as seeking land. We told them that land was of Delhi. Our DMs had to wield their sticks for the acquisition of land. We now require land to set up hospitals, colleges, bus depots. And now you are saying that we will give you land at the cost of Rs 4 crore to 10 crore per acre. This is unfair. We spoke to UD minister Venkaiah Naidu and he was positive about health and education facilities. Hopefully for transport too he will give land. I tried to convince him that public transport should not be seen as a profit-making sector at least from the side of the government. If we want to increase the traffic speed, reduce pollution and ensure more people use public transport, we have to invest in it.

Dipankar Ghose: Why aren’t you taking to the streets to demand full statehood?

We have been demanding it. Whenever we meet, we talk about it. If we go to the people and shout ‘we want full statehood’, they will say you have a full majority, why are you demanding it. Or they will tell us to go fight on our own. Full statehood is just a word for the people. We have to make people aware of how it is going to affect their lives. So if we tell them that we are not getting land for public transport, then they will say it is a valid demand and land should be given. So all these (small battles) help people understand our demand about full statehood.

Vandita Mishra: On the Delhi government’s controversial ad, there has been criticism about the portrayal of Arvind Kejriwal. AAP has always been criticising parties like the Congress for reducing everything to one person or one family. Here you seem to be reducing the entire government to Arvind Kejriwal. How do you justify that?

You have to accept that this government is working under the leadership of Arvind Kejriwal. When we talk of getting things delivered, everyone matters. But when it comes to leadership, the entire government is working on his vision. There is no harm in accepting that. Even the media calls it the Kejriwal government.

Unni Rajen Shanker: On the Jitender Singh Tomar issue, did you back him for too long? When did you realise that you made a mistake in backing him?

The moment we came to know there was an error in his papers, we realised we had made a mistake. He showed us the response to an RTI, and an affidavit from the college. When you handle such a situation, there is always a chance of making a mistake. But if you realise the mistake and try to conceal it, then there is a problem. Till the time we felt there was truth in his (Tomar’s) argument, we defended him, but the moment we realised there was a botch-up, we accepted his resignation. There is a chance of making a mistake in the future too, but the intention is important. If after getting the correct information from sources, from media, from police, we had still defended him or hidden facts, then people could have questioned our intention.

Pragya Kaushika: But your government defended him on many occasions. Mr Tomar himself held two press conferences and said that his degree was correct and that he had spoken to Arvind Kejriwal. Didn’t you ever think of investigating the case yourself?

Because we thought that the papers given to us were correct. Now, in retrospect, I can say that we could have sent someone to investigate the case. But one deals with so many people, so when you get a case, you approach the person concerned first. Then when he furnishes secondary proof, you agree. Then when a third piece of evidence emerges, you ask the person for an explanation and realise there is an error.

We have learnt from our mistakes. There are also many parties whose ministers have been exposed, but they refuse to remove their ministers. The day we realised we were making a mistake, we removed the minister. But when there were revelations about Sushma Swaraj, Smriti Irani, Vasundhara Raje and the others, nothing happened.

Apurva: In the 2013 campaign, the candidate selection process was quite robust. Were some of the checks removed for the 2015 election?

We didn’t see this (Tomar’s case) coming. We can keep doing a post-mortem of the episode and think about what we could have done differently, but I believe that many of those things are irrelevant. What is relevant is what have we learnt from it. I was in the candidate selection committee too. At that time, some people may have thought that maybe they can get away with a few things, but now these people will realise that fighting the elections on an AAP ticket is a tough deal. So next time I am on a selection committee and ask a candidate about his past record, he will think twice before hiding facts.

Vandita Mishra: When you look back at the Prashant Bhushan-Yogendra Yadav episode, do you think that the party handled it correctly or are there some regrets?

See, whenever a colleague leaves you, it is definitely sad. But we had a more practical approach while understanding this. If people have problems in working together, then we can agree to work in the same direction, but on different platforms. So it is a good agreement.

Vandita Mishra: But do you think you could have handled it within the same platform?

Maybe someday we will realise how else we could have handled it. But for now, we haven’t understood it.

Pragya Kaushika: The government has claimed to have arrested 35 officers for corruption. But why is it not sharing their names?

I don’t want the ACB to reveal the names because it might happen that a few of the arrested officers are found to be innocent.

Mayura Janwalkar: You have hiked the budgetary allocation for education by 106 per cent and are also planning to recruit 2,000 teachers. But, you have said that you want to bring qualitative change in education. What steps have you taken in that direction?

The goal is to bring qualitative change in education. However, you cannot quantify qualitative changes. We are training teachers and principals. Education is the biggest responsibility of a government. I don’t believe in value education, but in value of education. We have listed 50 schools on a pilot basis. The target is to first develop a proper infrastructure and then impart training in skill development, theatre, sports and other subjects.

Mayura Janwalkar: You had once said that schools should ensure that their students do not turn out to be rapists.
A student spends 20 years in the education system. In these 20 years, if we do not ensure that he learns rape is morally and legally wrong, corruption is wrong, committing a crime is wrong, then certainly it is the failure of the education system. There is a difference between education and human resource development. Human resource development is part of education. We should focus on education as a whole.

Pragya Kaushika: Are you planning to set up a separate education board in Delhi?

The plan is still in the pipeline. The CBSE has done a lot of work, but why is its syllabus oriented towards producing only doctors, engineers and advocates? Don’t they feel there are other fields and issues too? Why don’t they develop suitable content to tackle these issues? It doesn’t matter to me which board it is, I want content that is driven towards providing education and not just human resource development. I have told Smriti Iraniji that I want to cut syllabus for classes IX to XII in Delhi schools by 20 per cent. My team is working on it. If they (Centre) are ready, then I have no problem with the CBSE.

Muzamil Jaleel: Do you want to introduce moral education?

We have to plan everything categorically. We have to also focus on basic learning. When we teach a child ‘opposites’, we say male is the opposite of female, whereas the two are complementary. So all their lives, children think male and female are opposites. Don’t you think it is wrong?

Naveed Iqbal: There are around 700 people in the MCD waiting for their pension for over a year.

I have released funds. The fund that the AAP government released in four months was 49 per cent more than the amount released last year. You can cross-check it with the BJP.

Apurva: Is there an expansion plan for AAP in other states?

Yes. There are many states where elections are due, we are assessing our strength in each of those states.

Dipankar Ghose: Before the budget, you went to the public asking where they think the money should be spent. What are your checks and balances? For instance, if a mohalla comes to you and says we want our money to be spent on a temple or a mosque, then how will you deal with such a situation?

The basic idea behind all these mohalla sabhas is to allow only those things which the Constitution permits. The Constitution itself is the biggest check and balance. We have never had the real taste of democracy, we are still evolving. A few people, intellectuals, think the general public is foolish. People are not fools. When we hold open meetings, sensible decisions are taken. Only in closed-door meetings, there is talk of corruption and conspiracy. We have held many mohalla sabhas, but in none of these meetings have there been illogical demands. Everyone wants to appear intelligent and righteous.

Coomi Kapoor: What is the secret of your long and close association with Arvind Kejriwal, who has a reputation of falling out with people?

Thousands of people are associated with Kejriwalji. When four people leave us, 400 join us. People are associated with Kejriwalji because of his honesty and courage.

Monojit Majumdar: Where is this conflict between the Centre and the LG heading? How has your relationship with the LG been in the last 7-10 days?

Today, we had lunch with the LG. We are fighting for what is right. We will continue to fight for the right issues, it is for the other side to decide. When you have brought in the concept of a UT with legislators, then respect such elected governments. You have to give us our rights. We will keep fighting.

Transcribed by Kumar Abishek, Sudhakar Jagdish and Ankita Dwivedi Johri