We want to solve wicked problems through tech: Pramod Varma, former chief architect, Aadhaar and UPI

He is also a painter in his spare time, if any, and traces his lineage to his ancestor and the famous painter Raja Ravi Varma.

Varma is now looking to tackle “wicked problems” with scalable solutions. He spoke to indianexpress.com about his passion for Digital Public Infrastructure (DPI), EkStep Foundation and the work in reengineering education and skilling across the country, and the India-centric solutions that digital public goods are offering across the country. Edited excerpts:

Venkatesh Kannaiah: Are DPI products being thought about for other larger problems, say like climate change? Can you tell us how it would work and what would be the impact?

Pramod Varma: Climate change is one wicked problem that we could partly solve with technology and particularly using the DPI approach that we are familiar with in India. Climate mitigation and energy transition cannot be left to private players alone.

The key for a DPI is unleashing market innovation with an eye on inclusion. And with climate change being identified as a key problem to solve, energy transition is one area where there is scope for building digital public goods.

There is a large shift towards electric vehicles now, but without interoperability of various systems like charging networks and supporting infrastructure, it would all lead to various private networks competing with one another, with proprietary software and networks without talking to one another. The opportunity is for an UPI for EV charging, for consumers to seamlessly charge and pay for their usage, using multiple providers and multiple networks. This is what we propose to achieve with one of our core protocols, the Beckn protocol.

There is also the concept of energy warehousing, with batteries which have a large amount of stored power connecting back to the grid, to increase the overall power availability in the system. Batteries lying unused just drain away power and it needs to connect back to stop the drain, and also make available more energy in the system. This could only be possible through an Unified Energy Interface, a digital public infrastructure which cannot be built by one private player. This additional energy availability will reduce the energy costs, as taking energy from the grid and giving back unutilised energy back to the grid, on a continuous and a seamless basis could be a gamechanger.

There is also the possibility of a DPI for a circular economy, where all the players interact in an efficient and seamless manner. Right now, take something like waste recycling: It is very inefficient, high-cost and there are many white spaces. Such a digitally organised infrastructure could lead to a sustainable way to fight climate change.

Venkatesh Kannaiah: What other wicked problems do you think DPI goods could solve?

Pramod Varma: Access to healthcare in rural and semi urban areas is one big issue in India. The challenge is to build a ‘clinic in a box’ for primary healthcare across the country. A solution which should be providing healthcare without the physical presence of the doctors, something digital.

Pramod Varma is also the brain ‘genesis author’ of the open source Beckn protocol that helps create decentralized open discovery, fulfillment, and transaction networks. (Express photo by Jithendra M)

The Ayushman Bharat Digital Mission (ABDM) is one such mission. It plans to build an integrated digital health infrastructure for the country.

Venkatesh Kannaiah: What is this concept called ‘societal thinking’? Is it a new way of using tech at scale for solving social problems? Or is it a new way of thinking per se?

Pramod Varma: It is basically what we consider as the Digital Public Infrastructure thinking to be used for larger societal problems. It involves unbundling of the problem, thinking of solutions in a modular manner, leveraging ecosystem players, and building infrastructure and products with modular, interoperable and scalable solutions in mind. And most importantly, it would all be in open source.

Venkatesh Kannaiah: Will building Digital Public Infrastructure and digital public goods across the world become like a Y2K opportunity for Indian software engineers. Is it like the next IT services like opportunity for India?

Pramod Varma: We look at sharing our Digital Public Infrastructure like Aadhaar and UPI with the global south as a part of our larger digital diplomacy initiatives. We are giving our offerings and our knowledge base and this in turn would help India’s standing in the world.

As for how it would benefit us materially, if we take a pole position in these kinds of protocols, platforms and products, the world would need to look to us to service these products and for new solutions for their problems.

It is all open source, so they can build products of their own, and after all the world is diverse and complex , and each one might want a different solution. But if we have built for India, which itself is pretty diverse, we would be the leaders in this field and it would give dividends in terms of jobs and various other opportunities.

Venkatesh Kannaiah: Can you tell us more about the Beckn Protocol, and how it will impact SMEs and mobility solutions?

Pramod Varma: Beckn protocol is a set of specifications and standards that, when adopted by digital platforms, enable the creation of decentralised networks. It allows consumers and service providers to interact with one another and perform transactions with each other without the need for a central intermediary.

We have used it to build the Open Network for Digital Commerce (ONDC) which was launched last year. It takes time for all the players to understand the system and align themselves with the incentives. UPI took about 8 years to mature and scale.

Venkatesh Kannaiah: Can you tell us about your experience on Open Mobility Networks. How was the experiment and the learnings?

Pramod Varma: We have built an Open Mobility Network in Kochi, to provide its citizens with seamless multimodal mobility. It is a great pilot to start with. The key is to use our platform to provide interoperability between various mobility service providers, public and private transport agencies covering mass transit systems, intermediate public transport, micro mobility etc. We are happy with the results of the pilot.

Pramod Varma is also a painter in his spare time, if any, and traces his lineage to his ancestor and the famous painter Raja Ravi Varma. (Express photo by Jithendra M)

Now, another more popular usage of the Beckn Protocol is the Namma Yatri app which is an Uber-like app for auto rides but without a central intermediary taking a large cut. Almost 1,00,000 drivers and 20,00,000 users are on the app and doing 1,00,000 rides per day. This is an app which is available and getting popular in Bengaluru.

A Namma Yatri like app, since they use the Beckn Protocol, can be plugged into a multi modal system without much of a change and will be open for further integration and scale.

Venkatesh Kannaiah: What are the products you are working in the Ekstep Foundation, apart from DIKSHA, Mission Karmayogi and DIVOC

Pramod Varma: With Ekstep, the focus is on foundational learning and skilling for Bharat. Our focus is on primary and pre-primary school students and we are trying to use play-based models to build literacy and numeracy on a large scale.

We have helped build DIKSHA , the largest learning platform for school students in the country and the largest skilling platform for teachers in the country. We have taken into account the diversity and the need for autonomy at various levels, since education is a state subject. There could also be district level customisation of teaching on the DIKSHA platform. This is the kind of flexibility we have built on the platform. It is also being sought after globally and we are working with various countries for them to have their own DIKSHA.

Another important initiative of Ekstep is trying to marry AI with Indic languages. It is about building large Indic language datasets and looking to build a Voice Payments module in the future.

We are also a partner with AI4Bharat and the Bhashini Mission which aims to build a national public digital platform for languages to develop services and products using AI.

EkStep is also collaborating with ONDC and FIDE to launch ONEST, an open network for education, skilling, and livelihood opportunities. It is in early stages and we hope to see the pilot kicking in soon. Such networks specifically address blue collar and gig workers providing learning and earning opportunities.

Venkatesh Kannaiah: From being chief architect of Aadhaar to EkStep Foundation, how has it changed your life and your outlook?

Pramod Varma: I continue to be humble and appreciative of the fact that there are still large problems we need to solve using tech in an affordable and inclusive way. I am also not naive to think that tech can solve all the problems, but there is still a lot of impact that could be generated using tech in a creative and public spirited manner.