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Journalism of Courage
Delhi Chief Minister Atishi on why pollution is a national emergency, the Centre-State divide and braving the dent in their image as a party. The session was moderated by Mallica Joshi, City Editor, and Jatin Anand, Assistant Editor, The Indian Express
Mallica Joshi: Delhi has had continuous days of severely polluted air. Could you tell us what you thought would happen and has not worked out because we are back to square one?
It is not Delhi alone. The entire Indo-Gangetic plain, all parts of north and central India are reeling under this pollution crisis. North India is facing a medical emergency. A national response is required for it. Why is no one asking questions of the Central government? The Prime Minister is not even in the country. Forget coming back to India, he doesn’t even feel the need to make a statement. What is the national government doing? Why are they not taking action? You say that there is pollution in Delhi, yes there is pollution — vehicular, construction and demolition. But this pollution exists the whole year round. The only thing that changes at this time of year is the stubble burning. About seven-eight years ago, you could have said that Punjab is responsible, now even that has changed. In the current year, if you were to look at the data, Madhya Pradesh has overtaken Punjab in stubble burning.
Mallica Joshi: But what has the Delhi government done?
Let me tell you what the Delhi government has done but that will not change what happens in the winter. Multiple studies, one done by IIT Delhi recently, shows that the local pollution in Delhi has decreased. You cross the road from Delhi into UP into Kaushambi bus station — all their buses are diesel. Delhi can change its buses to electric, its cars to electric, get rid of the brick kilns, its thermal power plants, change all its industries, it is still not going to be enough. This is a national problem. I really want to challenge the Central government to name one thing they have done to stop stubble burning, which pollutes this entire stretch of north India in the winters — what have they done?
Jatin Anand: What do you think the Centre should do to combat this pollution?
The major reason why farmers burn stubble is financial; it is cheaper. Stubble burning started after the combined harvester started being used. That leaves a larger stubble after the rice is harvested. Then there’s very little time before the wheat is planted for the winter. So, the cheapest thing to do is burn the stubble. Any other mechanism — manual labour or other machines — is expensive. So, unless cash incentives are given to the farmers, nothing else is going to work. For Punjab, we had a calculation, where we said that one-fourth will be paid by the government of Punjab, one-fourth by Delhi government and the Government of India should foot one half of the bill.
But the Centre never responded to that proposal.
Jatin Anand: This election will be unlike any other election that the AAP has contested in Delhi. What are your challenges, given that Arvind Kejriwal is not at the core of the campaign?
Arvind Kejriwal is the leader and face of the AAP. The people of Delhi love him. Definitely, there are challenges. For the last two years, the kind of attack that AAP has faced — to have all of its senior leadership in jail — did have an impact. Work slowed down in Delhi. But people have a lot more faith in Kejriwal than in AAP. That is what I believe is going to bring us back to power again.
On the Opposition accusing AAP of gives freebies | A lot of our policies, what are called freebies or revdis, are carefully crafted to benefit the people who need it the most. We proudly say we give out revdis and we will keep giving them
Mallica Joshi: Yes, he is a very popular leader, but does that also indicate that there is more that AAP now needs to do to get votes?
The election campaign for AAP is definitely centred around Kejriwal. Why did we have this ‘Revdi Pe Charcha’ event? Because one of the criticisms we face from the BJP is that ‘Kejriwal free ki revdi baanta hai (he distributes freebies)’. In some ways, we are taking that head on. Yes, this is a factor. We do give 24-hour electricity, we give high-quality education in government schools free, we give free treatment in our mohalla clinics. Bus rides for women are free and teerth yatra for the elderly are free. It does make a difference to the lives of ordinary people. A lot of our policies, what are called freebies or revdis, are very carefully crafted in ways to give benefit to the people who need it the most. We proudly say we give out revdis and we will keep giving them.
Mallica Joshi: If AAP wins the elections, does Arvind Kejriwal come back as the CM?
Arvind Kejriwal is the face of our campaign. Our slogan is ‘Phir Layenge Kejriwal’. I, being the CM at present, have independent decision-making powers. That is different from being the face of an election.
Mallica Joshi: Does the Excise Policy case and the Supreme Court bail order not tie his hands?
Kejriwal’s hands have been tied for the last 10 years, not just now. But he has worked.
Nikhil Ghanekar: You spoke about Punjab’s fire count in farms coming down. However, the jury is still out because there is a debate going on regarding the undercount of fire incidents in Punjab.
This theory going around that Punjab farmers burn their stubble to mislead the NASA satellite is peculiar because why just Punjab farmers? Why not Haryana farmers? Why not Madhya Pradesh farmers? And if all farmers are burning their stubble after the NASA satellite has gone off, then whatever data the Government of India is giving, is actually two or three times that. So, if today Punjab data shows that it is less than Madhya Pradesh, even if it is .5 times as claimed, even Madhya Pradesh is .5 times of whatever is being said.
On fighting stubble burning | Stubble burning is happening across the country. You see the rise in Haryana, UP, Rajasthan, MP. Unless we address this nationally, every time the season starts, we will ask, why is there pollution in Delhi
Nikhil Ghanekar: Punjab is obviously in the conversation because Punjab’s downwind is towards Delhi. Do you think enforcement is lacking in checking fires?
About seven-eight years ago, Punjab used to be the main and only culprit as far as stubble burning was concerned. That has changed. The fire incidents in Punjab have actually come down. If you were to see the data, the Indian Council of Agriculture Research says that in 2021 there were more than 70,000 farm fires and places that number between September 15 and November 15 at 8,040, which is an almost 85 per cent reduction. The same data says that in this period, Madhya Pradesh actually had a higher count and higher acreage of stubble burning. Stubble burning is happening across the country, which needs to be addressed. You see the rise in trend in Haryana, in Uttar Pradesh, in Rajasthan, in Madhya Pradesh. Unless we address this nationally, year on year, every time the stubble burning season starts, we will ask, why is there pollution in Delhi?
Aakash Joshi: One of the things about the AAP in the initial years was that it was not politics as usual. Now, we see leaders come and go. Do you think that does something for the notion of your party as being somewhat different?
I am the Chief Minister of Delhi. If I was in any other political party, I can bet I would not even get a ticket to contest an election. When I first contested the parliamentary election in 2019, some senior women leaders from other political parties asked me, ‘How difficult was it for you to get a ticket?’ They would not believe me when I said, ‘I didn’t ask for a ticket, they offered me’. I don’t come from a political background. My father is not an MP, my nana is not a governor of any state. I don’t come from a family of wealth. It is only in the AAP that me, or people like me, have been given space in mainstream electoral politics. If you are asking me, do people from other political parties come to us? Yes, they do. But I think that there is always going to be a churn in politics. Do we expect that the 10-12 people in the core team of the AAP are the only people with political wisdom? That would be a bit arrogant to assume. A lot of people, even in regular mainstream political parties, have a strong ground connection. At the end of the day, that is one of the things that matters the most.
Mallica Joshi: Does that mean that winnability of a person takes precedence over the track record or the honesty of a person?
Of course, winnability matters. Are we contesting elections as a pastime? No. We are contesting elections to win the elections and form the government. Because only when we form the government can we do the work that we do. If I’m not in power, if I’m not in the government of Delhi, I cannot improve government schools. If I’m not in government, I cannot provide free health care to people. One of the things that matters a lot to us, is the connect that people have on the ground. Just because someone has been with AAP for five years, 10 years, or they might be part of the original group of people, does not also necessarily mean that they are all of this. People can become corrupt, can become disconnected from the people who voted them into power. I think there are good people everywhere, so I think that we should always keep our doors open for people.
Ritika Chopra: Kailash Gahlot who recently left AAP for the BJP said Kejriwal is not an aam aadmi anymore. He spoke about the ‘sheesh mahal’ controversy, which sort of dented the party’s image. Can you comment on that?
The BJP has made many attempts in the last 10 years to break leaders from our party. Everything has been offered — from money to plump political positions. It’s always a carrot and a stick. If you do come with us, we will make you the CM face of Delhi, we will give you X or Y. And if you don’t come with us, then you’re going to face the wrath of agencies. When Manish Sisodia was in jail for 17 months, he was made multiple offers by the BJP. Not everyone can have the strength or the moral courage of a Manish Sisodia. Or a Satyendra Jain, who was in jail for two years, faced severe ill health, needed a spinal surgery which he did not get for almost 18 months, and yet stood by his party. There were ED raids, IT raids at Kailash Gahlot’s residence. This has been happening for months. When he leaves AAP, we also know why he has left. But now that he has gone to the BJP, he has to read out whatever script they are giving him.
Aakash Joshi: Do you think Arvind Kejriwal as a person is bigger than the party and, perhaps, even the chief minister of Delhi?
The people of Delhi have a very strong connect with Arvind Kejriwal. It was not just as a chief minister but as a political leader. They regard him as one of their own. Usually, people are in awe of politicians. They are also a bit scared. With Kejriwal, they feel yeh humara apna hai. Now, for people to feel that kind of confidence, it reflects a different relationship.
On members leaving AAP | Just because someone has been part of the original AAP group, does not mean they cannot become corrupt or disconnected from the people who voted them into power
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Rahul Sabharwal: When the AAP came to power, there was expectation that there would be cohesion between the government and the MCD. But the MCD, arguably, has performed worse than the previous BJP-ruled MCD. Does that not affect ground-level sentiment?
The MCD that we inherited was definitely in a state of crisis. It was bankrupt. But, I strongly disagree that it’s worse. If you remember during the BJP years, every three months there would be a sanitation workers’ strike because they were not getting paid. For the first time in the 20-25 years of MCD, their sanitation workers are getting paid on the first of every month. Yes, of course, there are challenges. But the people have elected us for a five-year tenure and we would be best judged at the end of the five years.
Sophiya Mathew: The CSE report on the mobility crisis talks about how vehicular pollution is a significant contributor to particulate matter pollution in Delhi. Why is Delhi still lagging behind in taking adequate measures?
Delhi probably has one of the fastest expanding public transport networks. In the last 10 years, Delhi Metro has increased almost 1.5 times in capacity. Our mohalla buses are providing last mile connectivity. In Delhi, almost everyone has more than one car. We can also make the effort and travel by Metro. But because we have upward social mobility, we want to make our lives more convenient. So, yes, there will always be some of this tension between an aspirational lifestyle and its environmental consequences.
Liz Mathew: How far are you factoring anti-incumbency in your campaign and candidate selection?
As far as candidates are concerned, we take a lot of feedback from the ground. It is extremely important for political parties and leaders to be connected to the ground, to have multiple sources of feedback, apart from just your own party networks. So yes, that is definitely going to affect our candidate choice or ticket selection. In fact, in 2020 also, for such reasons of local anti-incumbency or the MLA not having attended to people’s concerns and grievances, about 16 to 18 of our sitting MLAs were dropped and new people were given tickets.
Muzamil Jaleel: Delhi is not a full state, we have two power centres here. How powerless is the chief minister of Delhi compared to other states? There is a similar experiment in J&K now. Omar Abdullah is also dealing with the same Centre.
Well, I hope that the Central government doesn’t go after Omar Abdullah, the same way that they’ve gone after AAP! Delhi definitely has its challenges because you have power that is divided between the Centre and the state. The fundamental problem is with the Central government controlling all of law and order in Delhi. It is the home minister who has the control. This is not because it’s a BJP home minister. By its very nature, someone who has to look after the affairs, from Kashmir to Kanyakumari, from Assam to Gujarat, will only be able to pay that much attention… It is a job of the Central government to be looking at national security issues. And I don’t just say this because I am the Chief Minister of Delhi and my party is in power, I would say this for any party that might be in power. If you do have a democratically elected government, it represents the mandate of the people. And that mandate needs to be respected, be it in Delhi or Jammu Kashmir or anywhere in the country.
