The position of women in our country is still extremely precarious: Ratna Pathak Shah

An active member of the theatre company Motley, Shah’s filmography lays bare her capabilities as an actor — from sitcoms such as Sarabhai Vs Sarabhai, Idhar Udhar, among others to socially aware movies of the likes of Lipstick Under My Burkha, Nil Battey Sannata, Thappad, Kapoor & Sons, et al. Not widely known, but the same holds true for her theatrical productions as well — Ismat Apa Ke Naam, Dear Liar, The Father, and many more.

In a conversation with The Indian Express, the 66-year-old delves into her role as a theatre artist, opens up on being a reluctant actress during her childhood, discusses the relationship between government and art, ponders on her body of work after she crossed her 40s and even talks about pay-parity.

Edited excerpts:

You are about to enter your 50th year as a theatre artist. From 1974 — when you did your first play — till now, how has your journey been?

It’s been a very interesting journey — it has kept me alive and allowed me to practice my skills as an actor. Theatre has given me more or less everything I know — it has helped me understand and deal with the world in a much more human and sensitive way. It also introduced me to some of the most wonderful writers, the most wonderful ideas, and to wonderful people — that’s what theatre is, you create a group of people that work together over long periods, and they get to know each other as human beings and as individuals and influence each other thus. In short, it has been a very fulfilling journey.

You grew up in a theatre family in Bombay, and your mother, Dina Pathak, was a very well-known theatre and cinema actress. However, you were reluctant in the initial years to take up acting as a career choice. Why?

Yeah, I was quite keen not to be an actress. For a while, I wasn’t sure about this at all. Because everyone just presumed that I would do that just because my mother was an actor. So I wasn’t very keen on following in her footsteps in that sense. But over time, I realised that this is something that I really enjoy doing, that I just may be good at. And, therefore, I should train myself, learn more about it and find a way to improve my skills, which is why I went to the National School of Drama and worked with several other groups after returning. That is what really helped me to develop as an actor.

Your mother was also a part of the Indian People’s Theatre Association (IPTA) and a social activist. Are you following in her footsteps in this sphere as well?

To a certain extent, Maa was much more closely linked to a political party and worked within those parameters. Like you said, she was a member of the IPTA for a very long time and travelled all over the country with the kind of work they did. I certainly haven’t had that kind of an interesting life. My connection with theatre has led me to be able to participate with all kinds of people and meet all kinds of theatre groups in Mumbai, particularly through those events and through other opportunities that I got, I do work with a group of people, and we run an organisation called the Avehi Abacus Project wherein we provide and produce teaching learning material, which is used in municipal schools all around Mumbai. So, that has been really the extent of my connection in the social field by working with Avehi Abacus.

You’ve been quite vocal about the dissonance between the government and the field of arts. Do you see any change happening on this front compared to when you started?

Governments are never supporting the arts, not in our country. They put up a whole lot of roadblocks, they always have, as this present government is also doing. Censorship is always a sword that’s hanging over our heads. There’s not enough infrastructure, there’s not enough funding, there has never been, at least for theatre, in particular, and whatever little funding did exist once upon a time from organisations like NFDC, they don’t exist anymore. So, it’s always a battle that artists usually end up fighting by themselves alone without much help — in our country at least.

 World over, particularly in the West, governments and art councils greatly support art activity. They start with school intervention — lots of art projects and programs for young people to participate in. We’ve never had any of that in our country. That is a shame. It shouldn’t be the case. Government support for art would be wonderful if only it didn’t come with 20,000 clauses that say ‘you got to do this, you’ve got to keep records, etc.’ That’s what it tends to become — a bureaucratic exercise more than actual help for the art.

Which Motley production speaks to you the most?

That would be hard to choose. Ismat Apa Ke Naam would certainly be one of them. It has had a very long life. We started doing it in 2001. And in 2023, 22 years later, we’re still doing it. It’s wonderful how we find new audiences for it everywhere we go. So it’s been a very satisfying and successful play for Motley and me personally. But Motley has done many other productions of which we are very proud, for example, Waiting for Godot, which we did many years ago, Dear Liar, a play about the relationship between George Bernard Shaw and Mrs Patrick Campbell, an actress of his time, I find that an absolutely fascinating piece of writing. So these are the plays that I have enjoyed doing very much.

You just mentioned Ismat Apa Ke Naam, a play whose themes cover women and sexuality. From 2001 — when the play was first performed — until now, do you see a change happening around us regarding gender politics?

There is certainly change, especially when compared to when Ismat was writing her stories. There is a huge change in the laws surrounding women’s rights and gender issues. There is a lot of change concerning the access to education and employment in our country for women. But I can’t say that I see a very great change at the social level. I feel that we are still struggling with very strange attitudes. 

Worse, the position of women in our country is still extremely precarious. On the contrary, in some cases, it’s become worse. There are many more women out in public now going to work, coming back home from work late in the evenings, there are women who work in places where both genders are together – everywhere, we are finding that women seem to be at a disadvantage, they are sexually vulnerable. And they certainly do not get the kind of opportunities that they deserve. They don’t get equal wages in almost every kind of occupation, whether it’s agricultural wages, or wages to an actor; female actors still get paid less. These are issues that we’re still grappling with.

Does pay parity exist in the field of theatre, according to you?

In theatre, nobody’s paid very much. At least so far in India, in the kind of theatre we do, we all get paid a blanket amount of whatever the production has decided — sometimes 500 rupees, sometimes 1,000 rupees — whatever the production can afford. The kind of theatre we do is not commercial; we don’t make a huge amount of money, and we don’t perform in very large spaces. So everyone in our unit, whether it is a backstage worker or the director of the play, all of us get paid the same amount of money. 

So, at least in our company, in our own way, we’ve tried to make some form of equality possible. But that’s not true everywhere. Obviously, there is a commercial theatre in India, particularly in languages such as Gujarati and Marathi, they do have a theatre in which actors are paid more regularly. I have a feeling that there’s some kind of discrepancy there as well that female actors are paid less, maybe or maybe not because theatre does give more opportunities for women actors, I believe.

You said somewhere that after your hair turned grey, you’re getting the most exciting work of your life. Being part of pathbreaking movies such as Lipstick Under my Burkha, Kapoor And Sons, Jaane Tu Ya Jaane Na, how does it feel to act in movies that manage to straddle the fine line between being commercial and socially minded?

I didn’t know these projects would be pathbreaking. I took them on because they were good scripts, my part was well written, and it was talking about something around me that I feel strongly about, particularly a film like Lipstick Under My Burkha or Kapoor and Sons, they definitely have shades of characterisation which are very close to me, personally. But that’s not always the case. And it just happened to be that I have been given such opportunities. 

So I don’t quite set out specifically to be on the forefront of any kind of a social movement or anything; I don’t think I really can do that. I don’t think any individual actor can do that. But I do believe very strongly that films, theatre, and all kinds of art are really a way to make sense of the world around us, a way to protest against the world around us. Sometimes, it’s a way to inspire change in our world. And without this activity. Art really does not have any social underpinning, but I feel that it should.

You continue to churn out stellar performances both in theatre and cinema. How do you manage to remain focused, passionate and professional over time?

It’s been my privilege to have led an interesting and varied life. That is why it hasn’t been difficult to stay focused and interested in the kind of work that I have done. Moreover, I have been very fortunate that in the kinds of work I did and still do, I’ve been given opportunities to challenge myself as an actor, both on stage and on digital media particularly. I find that because of theatre and the kind of plays I have worked in, I have had the opportunity to know more about myself and the world around me. That is something that has kept me excited and going for so long.