Shashi Tharoor: ‘US is entirely entitled to deport illegal Indian immigrants… I’m only unhappy they sent them in military plane’

I have heard that they have sent them on a military plane.  Well, that is the only thing that I am not happy about. I think the US is entirely entitled to deport those people who they deem to be illegally present in their country and whose nationality can be established beyond doubt. So these are Indians, and they are in another country without authorisation, then India has a legal obligation to take them back. But I do believe it would have been better for the US to have sent these people on a regular commercial flight, or if necessary, on a civilian charter, than doing so on a military aircraft. That I think is what is a new contribution by Mr Trump’s administration. That implies something else that I would not have been as happy to welcome. But having said that, on the question of Indian citizens being brought back to India, definitely that’s where they belong. They should be back at home. And if they wish to travel abroad, they should go through only through legal means. I don’t think that anybody can disagree with that proposition.

But there is one view that the government should have exerted more pressure to maybe regularise some of these people and all that. So you don’t agree with that?

Well, I don’t agree with that, because the fact is that why should we require any country to take illegal immigrants when we ourselves don’t think it is a good idea. There are very clear established provisions of both international law and national political practice. International law entitles people who fear persecution in their home countries to seek asylum elsewhere. And I don’t think that at this stage, anybody in India can legitimately claim a fear of persecution on the grounds recognised by international law. So they are going essentially for economic benefit.

Those who are going for legitimate purposes, like studies, tourism or on work visas such as the H-1B visa, they have no problem going to the US. It is only those who have gone illegally or who have gone on a pretense, like going on a tourist visa and then overstaying and working and so on, who are affected by such orders. And I think that it is entirely not the business of the Government of India to encourage our own citizens to go outside illegally. In fact, we want our citizens to observe the law, just as we expect foreigners in our country to observe our laws.

The BJP keeps on talking about illegal immigration from Bangladesh. So by the same logic, should India be identifying and sending back or deporting all the so-called Bangladeshi illegal immigrants?

If they are indeed proven to be Bangladeshi. Yes, I think Bangladesh has the same obligation to take them as we have to take the illegal Indians in America. Part of the problem in many cases, in the political context in India, is that many people who claim to be Indian are being described by some as Bangladeshis, but they are not able to prove conclusively that these people have an address or a document that certifies them to be Bangladeshi. So the Bangladeshi Government will, in turn, turn around and say, how can we accept these people? They might be West Bengali Muslims, unless you can prove thm Bangladeshi. If you can prove them Bangladeshi, then the Bangladesh government is obliged by international law to take them and I would support the government in sending them back. Again you have to see whether their nationality is beyond question.

If I were an Indian government official, and the Americans wanted to return somebody who they think is Indian, but I’m not sure is Indian, that he might be from some other country, including Pakistan or Bangladesh or Sri Lanka, and there is no proof, because there is no documentation or proof of identity or anything else as to the identity, then I too would contest deportation. But I think, as far as I know, that the deportations that have taken place so far, and certainly the 1,100 who were deported last year, were all people whose identity was confirmed by both sides to be Indian, by America and by India, in which case, of course, they should be here. This is their country.

There was a huge controversy when the Narerdra Modi government talked about the NRC. Even the Congress had taken a position on the NRC. That is all about ascertaining the citizenship of the people in India, and deporting illegal immigrants.

The thing is deporting an illegal immigrant whose identity is confirmed – that is the issue. Our objection to the NRC was that it could suddenly exclude from Indian citizenship people who are Indian but don’t have documentary proof of it. For example, the argument that if you are born in India, you should be able to prove it is only relatively recently easy to substantiate, because in the early days, right up to the 1990s, you had very many parts of India where birth certificates were not routinely issued. You may remember that even in metropolitan areas or in areas with fairly well off and educated families, there is a problem of no birth certificates. It was not too long ago. We remember the V K Singh controversy, when he mentioned that he did not have a valid birth certificate and that his date of birth in government records was wrong. So if a government minister in India can’t provide a birth certificate, then you can imagine the situation of, say, a Bengali Muslim born in West Bengal who does not have a certificate to show he was born in West Bengal and he would suddenly be subject to deportation. Equally, the people in Bangladesh will say how can we take him when he doesn’t believe he has an address in Bangladesh. So the complication is precisely that.

Yesterday, there was a ruling by the Supreme Court saying that people whose identities are confirmed to be those of foreigners should be reported without delay and that what are you waiting for? And I think that is an absolutely legitimate question to ask, where identities are confirmed. Where identities are not confirmed, the Congress is totally justified in saying that how can you incarcerate, disenfranchise and possibly deport an individual who is claiming passionately that he is actually Indian only because he can’t produce a birth certificate when there are very many other Indians who can’t produce (it too).

What has the government told the Parliamentary Standing Committee on External Affairs on this entire exercise that the US government is now undertaking. Has the government given the committee the number  of illegal Indian immigrants in the US and how many of them are facing deportation. There was a meeting of the Standing Committee Tuesday.

There was a meeting yesterday and the issue did come up, but I’m not at liberty to talk about the details of these things. However, the issue came up in the context of a discussion on the Indian diaspora generally, and the government was only able to confirm that some people have been deported. There is a general problem of deficient data. And in the Committee, we have raised the question, as have many state governments about the lack of credible data for the Indian diaspora and the widely divergent figures issued by various parties. For example, the estimate of Indian migrants issued by the UN Population Division says 178 lakhs last year. That is migrants in one year, whereas the Indian government is only showing a total number of 15 million NRIs abroad. Now that doesn’t add up, because if you are getting 17.8 million in one year, how do you get 15 million over all these years? It doesn’t make sense. So these numbers all have to be checked and reconciled. The government has pleaded difficulties in performing anything like an accurate count of the Indian population abroad especially since there are various systemic issues. But the committee has stressed, many state governments have requested that it is indispensable for accurate data to be established.

Some Congress leaders have said that the Indians returning on the US military plane were handcuffed. Do you have any confirmation on that?

I have not heard it myself, but certainly I would expect our government to convey back to the US that you are deporting somebody for having violated your laws. You don’t need to put them in a military plane. You don’t need to handcuff them. They’re not criminals once they have left your soil. Their only crime is that they are illegally on your soil. You’re putting them now on our soil. Please don’t handcuff them. Please don’t send them in a military plane. I think that is a reasonable stand for an Indian government official to take, and I hope the Indian government does take such a stand.