Shahnawaz Hussain at Idea Exchange: ‘Opposition support is not a favour. It is every citizen’s duty to be on India’s side’

The incident in Pahalgam on April 22 wasn’t just an act of terror but Pakistan’s conspiracy to create infighting within India. People were killed after being asked their religion. This was clearly premeditated. This was a first-of-its-kind instance where people were killed for being Hindu in a Hindu-majority country. Pakistan has become arrogant that it is a nuclear state and no one can touch them. PM (Narendra) Modi called for surgical strikes and Pakistan got the first slap. Then, the air strikes were another slap. India does not intend to escalate but if Pakistan doesn’t stop, then we will do what is necessary. Pakistan is a threat not just for India but for the entire world. Wherever in the world there is an act of terror, it is rooted in Pakistan. And I am upset that a terrorist organisation has named itself Jaish-e-Mohammed. Our god Tajdar-e-Madina is known as the Rahmatan lil Alamin not just for Muslims but for the entire world. And they have made a terrorist organisation in his name. They are defaming Islam. The maulvis and maulanas in Pakistan should protest and Islamic organisations in India, too, should oppose. Our country has been divided on communal lines once, it cannot happen again. The people of India have showed that we will stand united.

Lalmani Verma: During Operation Sindoor, Colonel Sofiya Qureshi and Wing Commander Vyomika Singh were brought in for the briefing. What was the messaging behind this move?

That is the decision of the Director General of Military Operations (DGMO) usually. It was a good message to both India and Pakistan. General (Asim) Munir (Pakistan’s army chief) spoke about the two-nation theory but Pakistanis too must have seen Sofiya Qureshi speaking on behalf of India on TV, they must have realised that Indian Muslims love their country. They do not need a certificate from Pakistan.

Everyone appreciated this as Indians, not because they were Hindu or Muslim.

Liz Mathew: After the 2019 Balakot strikes, the reaction from the Opposition was different from this time. Why do you think Opposition, leaders and even organisations have declared support for the government?

All those who spoke nonsensical things after the Balakot strikes were taught a lesson. This support (by Opposition parties) is not a favour. As an Indian, it is everyone’s duty that whenever there is an Indo-Pak issue, every Indian has to be on India’s side. It is true that we have our differences with the Opposition but it was right for them to voice support. This attack was a conspiracy against Kashmiris, against Muslims, against Indians. All the effort that Pakistan and ISI put in to divide India, has been thwarted by Indians. All Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs and Christians remain united.

Liz Mathew: Despite what you are saying, we have seen attacks against Kashmiris. On social media, minorities are being trolled. What do you have to say about that?

There have been a few instances in Punjab and other places but overall there haven’t been a lot of complaints. It is absolutely unacceptable to treat Kashmiris in this manner. But it is true that in the Pahalgam attack, some local elements were involved. There are sleeper cells there. Someone or the other must have helped them. But misbehaving with the common Kashmiri is not right. My party also does not support this.

‘When the Parliament attack happened, I was the civil aviation minister and we had closed the air space. At that time as well, we had put the armed forces on the front foot’ (Express/Renuka Puri)

Liz Mathew: Another issue is the caste census. The entire party is now praising the PM for that. But we all know that even few weeks ago, this wasn’t the party’s stand. What is the reason behind this U-turn?

This is not a U-turn. I was in Bihar when the caste census happened. It is on record that the BJP supported it. When the delegation had come to meet the PM under the leadership of Nitish Kumar, we had also sent Janak Ram from BJP. We supported the it. In 2013, this issue was raised in the Parliament and Mulayamji and Laluji had spoken. At the time, deputy Opposition leader was Gopinath Munde. In Parliament, there was support from the BJP for the demand of a caste census. So we were never in denial mode. What we had said was that there are several challenges and we addressed those challenges. Now that we have done it, the Opposition is saying that it has happened because they said it. Everyone knows that this is Narendra Modi’s masterstroke. Now people are saying why now, when the Pahalgam incident has happened. That is because Narendra Modi doesn’t stop what he is working on. Pakistan cannot stop the flow of Narendra Modi’s work.

On Bihar elections | There’s no doubt that we’ll get a result like 2010. We’ll go past 200. Tejashwi Yadav will get less than 23 seats, not even enough to be the Opposition leader. Bihar will surely get the NDA seat this time

Vikas Pathak: The country is being praised for its reaction to Pahalgam. You were the youngest cabinet minister in Atal Bihari Vajpayee’s government when the Parliament attack happened (2001). Do you think such a decision should have been taken at that time as well?

When the Parliament attack happened, I was the civil aviation minister and we had closed the air space. At that time as well, we had put the armed forces on the front foot. We had reached the border. The entire world had decided that there shouldn’t be war. But we did bring Pakistan to its knees. It is not as if Atalji let them be at peace but there was no war. We never support war. We are Buddha’s country. But when terrorists act, we will not step back .

Lalmani Verma: The way the Waqf (Amendment) Act is being protested against, is it because the BJP is not being able to create its space within the Muslim community?

There is immense faith in Modiji. Muslims now call him Modi bhaijaan. He sees me as a BJP worker. We have also made an impression among backward Muslims, and we have also brought in the Waqf (Amendment) Act. What is happening is just like what happened during CAA (Citizenship Amendment Act) when Muslims were instigated against the government saying that it will take away their citizenship. The CAA was meant to give citizenship to the minorities who had come to India after being discriminated against in Bangladesh, Pakistan and Afghanistan. Similarly, the Waqf (Amendment) Act, which is in favour of Muslims, is facing bad publicity. It is being said that properties under Waqf will be usurped. That is completely wrong. You should also know that there won’t be any non-Muslim in it. But the Waqf Board and Waqf Council are under statutory power, and will have two non-Muslims, two backward Muslims and two women. If that is the case, what is the problem? It is also being said that a Waqf user who doesn’t have any document will be usurped. But that is not the case. All they have been asked to do is register on the Waqf portal. In Delhi, Asaduddin Owaisi is creating confusion. When Delhi became the capital, all land was notified. That also included mosques, graveyards and dargahs. About 123 such properties were denotified for Re 1. Then the matter went to court, but not a single mosque is going to go under this Waqf Act. What Owaisi is saying is that the mosque in front of the Parliament will also be considered government property but that is not going to happen. I want to tell my Muslim brothers that you will not lose your mosques or dargahs. In fact, the properties that have been wrongfully taken away from the Waqf will be back. That is what the Waqf (Amendment) Act is about.

‘In CAA, they were completely wrong, it was a law to give citizenship, not take it. If I’m wrong, say so’ (Express/Renuka Puri)

Asad Rehman: You mentioned that the Opposition and Muslim organisations had misled people about CAA. But, in 2019, Muslims mobilised Shaheen Bagh protests over Amit Shah’s speech that said first there will be CAA and then NRC (National Register of Citizens).

That may be your opinion. But people collected on the basis of CAA only. They said that if you get CAA, your citizenship will go away. The people who protested CAA misled the nation. As for the ‘chronology samjhiye’ speech, NRC needed to be explained. People take Amit Shahji’s name to provoke others. Muslims should understand that the government has no intention to take graveyard, mosque or dargah land. The Waqf has donated precious land for the poor, the deprived and the orphans but they haven’t benefited. I was in the Delhi Waqf Board for five years, I know and I have seen this. Dargahs have been broken and people have made homes.

Asad Rehman: The Supreme Court (SC) also asked a question on non-Muslims coming to Waqf boards/councils. A judge asked: Will Hindu endowment bodies also get non-Hindus?

This is a comment by a SC judge, it’s not an order. No graveyard committee will have a non-Muslim. Why talk about a mandir committee? No dargah or graveyard committee will have a non-Muslim. But where there’s something formed with statutory powers — look at Delhi Waqf board. There have to be two MPs. If the MP is non-Muslim, they will obviously be the member, what’s wrong about it? This isn’t a mandir committee. Mandir committee shouldn’t have Muslims. Masjid committee shouldn’t have Hindus. The judge sahab is right. But where there’s a board, formed with statutory powers, why not? We will represent that in court. We hope that the decision will come accordingly.

On assurances about waqf | I want to tell my Muslim brothers that you will not lose your mosques. Properties that have been wrongfully taken away from the Waqf will be back. That is what the Waqf (Amendment) Act is about

Shashank Bhargava: Those who are protesting CAA and Waqf are being misled, you say. That’s what was said about the farm laws too. Isn’t there a question about the messaging of the government then?

In CAA, they were completely wrong, it was a law to give citizenship, not take it. If I’m wrong, say so. Secondly, farm laws, they didn’t like what we said about contact farming, we thought they were right. We had a good intention, couldn’t convince them and we took it back. But that doesn’t mean every law we made should be taken back.

Deeptiman Tiwary: Any law by the government made for people’s benefit, why isn’t it made with the people’s confidence? With Waqf, you say that a JPC happened, but we all know what was debated. The Opposition said it wasn’t fair and one-sided.
Lalmani Verma: When Waqf bill was being planned, were you or Mukhtar Abbas Naqvi or anyone from the party’s minority wing consulted?

No, I wasn’t on any forum. When spokespersons were briefed, I was there. I wasn’t called to the JPC. As for not consulting people beforehand — of all the JPCs that have happened so far, no JPC has done more. Not every person can be asked. If there are bhadkau bhaijaans (those who provoke others), then there should be samjhau bhaijaans (those who can help others understand) too.

Lalmani Verma: When Waqf bill was being planned, were you or Mukhtar Abbas Naqvi or anyone from the party’s minority wing consulted?

No, I wasn’t on any forum. When spokespersons were briefed, I was there. I wasn’t called to the JPC. As for not consulting people beforehand — of all the JPCs that have happened so far, no JPC has done more. Not every person can be asked. If there are bhadkau bhaijaans (those who provoke others), then there should be samjhau bhaijaans (those who can help others understand) too.

Liz Mathew : The Opposition said the BJP’s narrative was that if we don’t have this Bill, Muslims will come and take away whatever property you have.

But we didn’t do it. The tribunal was given a lot of power. They can go and say that this property is disputed and your property will be taken. They can say this is not your home, Bahadur Shah Zafar declared it Waqf before dying, you can keep proving it. This right has been taken away. If someone is a practising Muslim, they can do Waqf, no problem. People are arguing about how the BJP or government will decide whether someone is a practising Muslim or not… If someone has just become a Muslim, they will have to wait five years. If someone wants to donate their property and is a Hindu today and becomes Muslim tomorrow, they’ll have to wait five years to make the property Waqf.

Deeptiman Tiwary: The Kashi Mathura issue is already underway. Now there are claims being made that there are temples underneath mosques in Sambhal, Ajmer, Budaun, Jaunpur and many other places. Till when will this continue?

I won’t comment on mosques which are sub-judice. But the RSS sarsanghchalak Mohan Bhagwatji has spoken on the others. There’s no intention to excavate everywhere.

Lalmani Verma: Among Muslims, the Shia sect has historically supported the BJP. We saw this in UP. But in the protests against the Waqf, Shia clerics and the public are participating. Do you think this will dent the BJP?

No EVM machine can tell whether the voter is a Sunni or Shia, Barelvi or Deobandi, Hindu, Muslim, Sikh or Christian. This is a perception that Shia sect has been helping the BJP. We want everyone, if the BJP is going to stay and is going to launch good schemes for you, you should support it. For Indian Muslims, there’s no better country than India, no better friend than a Hindu, no better politician than Modiji.

Deeptiman Tiwary: It is being suggested that in the middle of a serious incident like Pahalgam, you brought in this census announcement, eyeing the Bihar elections.

We believe that in the Bihar elections, under Nitishji’s leadership, BJP, JDU, Chiragji’s, Manjhiji’s and Upendra Kushwaha’s parties, we will fight together and form the government. It’s a double-engine government. There’s no doubt that we’ll get a result like 2010. We’ll go past 200. Tejashwi Yadav will get less than 23 seats, not even enough to be the Opposition leader. Bihar will get the NDA seat for sure. As for the caste census, it had to happen. Our opponents will think it’s for elections. That isn’t so. We’re going to win anyway.

Deeptiman Tiwary: You’ll win the elections and get more than 200 seats. Has it been decided in the NDA who the CM will be? Is there a consensus?

There is. We’ll form the government under Nitish Kumar’s leadership and fight the elections under it. It’s Bihar’s privilege that the most experienced CM is with Bihar. He has 20 years of experience. He has reconstructed Bihar. Roads, electricity, water will no longer be issues. Now there’s industry too. When I was industry minister, the state got 17 ethanol plants. Earlier, Bihar farmers used to get Rs 800-900 for maize (makka), now they get Rs 2,300-2,400. Farmers are happy. In Bihar, we made an ethanol policy under Nitishji’s guidance. There’s a lot of potential in textile, too. If anyone can challenge Bangladesh, it’s Bihar. Whoever needs to make shirts or jeans can set up a factory in Bihar.