Chhagan Bhujbal at Idea Exchange: ‘I don’t care what happens to me. We’ll create fear of losing OBC votes among leaders’

It has been 30 years since I left Shiv Sena. People still ask me the reason. I am happy to say that I have not left the NCP. The party is with me. Nobody will ask me those questions now. Yes, I am happy. We got what we wanted.

Sandeep Singh: What are your thoughts on Sharad Pawar, with whom you had a long association?

I don’t want to comment on that. We have already said why we shifted. All 54 MLAs had signed to shift and join the BJP government. It was not one person. That letter was shown to Pawar saheb. After that he resigned as party president. The idea was that he will resign and Supriya Sule will take over and all of us will be part of the government. All of a sudden, in three days, the decision was changed. If you did not want to do it, then why did you consider the signatures? But that’s past now.

Alok Deshpande: NCP was known as a Maratha party but you never left your identity as an OBC leader.

I left Shiv Sena on the Mandal issue. It was not easy to leave the Sena at that time. There was a Sena leader in Thane named Khopkar, who was murdered on the suspicion of cross voting. There was a saying that if you left the Sena, you’d meet the same fate. I left at that time. Eventually, 18 others left with me. I could not roam freely then as there was fear of attacks. I was twice the Mayor of Mumbai along with being an MLA. All over Maharashtra, except in Mumbai, Nashik, Pune, all the district and taluka-level parties were formed by me for the Sena. I was a senior leader of the Sena and left it despite these conditions on the Mandal issue. In 1994, there was a meeting in Jalna of the Mahatma Phule Samata Parishad, which I had founded. There were over a lakh assembled, demanding implementation of the Mandal Commission recommendations. I was the Housing Minister with the Congress then and Sharad Pawarji was also present. Pawar saheb announced to implement the recommendations and to execute those within a month. I am grateful to him for that. Though it is sad that now that the reservations for OBCs are in trouble, nobody is talking. Pawar saheb should have said that it is wrong.

Shubhangi Khapre: Ajit Pawar projects himself as a Maratha leader while you are following the OBC line. Many are saying that Mr Fadnavis is behind this protest by the OBCs.

You know that I don’t do popatgiri (puppetry) for anyone. Not even when I gave speeches with Balasaheb Thackeray at Shivaji Park. I always give my own speeches and make my own decisions. I am not that new nor small, that somebody will have to tell me what to do. If there has been anything fishy, then I am speaking about it.

There are several leaders who are not speaking. Elections are around the corner and everybody wants Maratha votes and is scared. But those votes are not more than 20 per cent, which are also divided in several parties

Sandeep Singh: But is there no dilemma in your party?

See, Ajit Pawar is a Maratha by caste. I, myself, by caste, am an OBC. Some of them are Dalits, Muslims… but what does that mean? Ajit Pawar has not spoken against me. He didn’t ask me to refrain from speaking on this issue. Whatever is coming in the papers, he reads. As a Maratha worker or a leader, if he wants to say something on their issues, he can say it.

Sandeep Singh: What is your party’s stance on the same?

Every party has one stance. ‘Will the Maratha votes go away from us? So whatever has to happen, let it happen. But our votes should be secure.’ But they are not understanding that Marathas don’t account for more than 16 to 20 per cent of the total vote share. Because 54 per cent vote is OBC. We say only 54 per cent, then 20 per cent is SC/ST and three per cent at least are Brahmins, so that takes the tally to 77 per cent. Then you take others such as Jains, among others. According to my study, Marathas are 16 per cent. But the political power, muscle power, money power, all of it rests with them. And now our (OBC) people are scared of them. They fear ‘Will they take away my sugarcane?’ ‘They have sugar factories and then my sugarcanes will dry up.’ ‘They have the banks, they think ‘will they not give me my money?’ In politics, if one Banjara stands up, then another Dhangar may stand up against him and they may end up fighting. In the meantime, these united Marathas will watch and rule. But slowly, this is changing. We are organising rallies, explaining what is happening and telling them that because of reservation, some of your people have become doctors, engineers, and gone to Zila Parishad. And now, if this really big powerful group comes, then it’s all over. We will get nothing. This is the fear.

We are not against Maratha reservation. When Prithviraj Chavan made an act, I supported it. Give it to them separately. Fadnavis made another act. I said don’t push us. Do it for them, but do it separately and not make a backdoor entry. This is our grievance. You should fill the gaps or cure discrepancies as SC has asked you to and give a separate reservation.

The CM said that Manoj Jarange-Patil and others are saying that they are Kunbis and the old records during Nizam period are in Telangana, therefore the committee should be formed and scrutinise if the records are available. We said, in that case the reservation should be given if Kunbi records are found as they automatically become part of OBCs. Later they said only 5,000 such records were found. But the number kept on increasing to 13,000 and 15,000 in a span of two days. Then Jarange-Patil made a demand that all Marathas in Marathwada should be given Kunbi certificates. Then they demanded all Marathas be given Kunbi certificates. Then the three- judge committee went to several villages to decide modalities. Now they are saying 57 lakh records were found of which 30 lakh were old ones. Then they added the Sage soyare (extended family) clause. It is affecting the OBCs. I am of the opinion that of the 10 per cent EWS quota, 8.5 per cent is availed by persons from the Maratha community. They are also part of the 40 per cent open category. Some of the Marathas have got Kunbi certificates by giving bribes. OBCs could not avail reservation through EWS. You are leaving the sea and want to enter the well where people from nearly 374 castes are seeking reservation. Marathas are not getting any special benefit but it is satyanash (endgame) for the OBCs

I raise my voice, wherever I think he (Eknath Shinde) is doing it wrong. All the documents pertaining to the court’s judgements are on record, which showed how false certificates pertaining to Maratha reservation were issued by the state

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Omkar Gokhale: OBC Mahasangh President Babanrao Taywade said that the notification is not going to affect the OBCs.

There are 374 castes in OBCs and there are several leaders who will put forth their say. The other day some people said they are forming a party (for the OBCs). They think no loss is caused to OBCs. How is that possible? Once they get reservation, it will be difficult for us to file cases for each wrong certificate being awarded.

Omkar Gokhale: Was there was no consensus within the government?

Nobody asked us. Now there is a sub-committee of Marathas under the leadership of minister Chandrakant Patil. I’m not a part of that committee. The first time they conveyed about decisions related to Kunbi certificates, it was in a gist and Justice (retired) Sandeep K Shinde Committee’s report has not been given to us yet.

Chhagan Bhujbal, senior NCP Leader and Minister of Food, Civil Supplies and Consumer Potection

Vallabh Ozarkar: You’ve tendered your resignation from the Ministry. Why?

I resigned on November 16, 2023, even though no one had demanded my resignation. I made a conscious decision since I was going to address a rally in Ambad (in Jalna district) for OBCs and was going to put my views, maybe against the government decision. That is why I thought I should resign. While on my way to the rally, I received several calls from my party to not announce the same in public. In the Ambad rally, I said I do not bother about my ministership or MLA ship and I will fight for the OBCs. When I returned from the rally, CM and two Deputy CMs confronted me. Ajit Pawar said I have forwarded your resignation to the CM. He said you can talk about the OBCs but do not reveal that you have tendered your resignation. I agreed and didn’t announce it. But when a ruling party MLA from the Shinde group commented that I should be kicked out of the ministry, I felt enough is enough. And I talked about my resignation.

Zeeshan Shaikh: In the ’90s, Sharad Pawar was standing in your support during your rallies. Are you satisfied with the support that you are getting from the current party leadership?

There are several leaders who are not speaking. Elections are around the corner and everybody wants Maratha votes. Everybody is scared because of votes. But I want to tell them that those votes are not more than 20 per cent, which are also divided in several parties. If you go to the villages, you will know something is very wrong about this.

Zeeshan Shaikh: There are talks that you will join the BJP.

As a leader I am connected with OBCs alone. And if something is coming against that, I will fight. I am not unhappy with my party. They have not asked me to stop.

I am not bothered about my ministership or MLA chair. But take it from me, I’d be elected by the people with a thumping majority, for the fifth time, on the basis of the work I’ve done. Marathas would also vote for me as they want development

Zeeshan Shaikh: Manoj Jarange-Patil hasn’t received any backlash from the NCP against the kind of language used against you. Why?

Our whip Anil Patil, and spokesperson Amol Mitkari, have come out on record and said that he cannot speak like that.

Vallabh Ozarkar: Your allies also haven’t supported you so far.

There are three parties that are part of the ruling alliance and each one of them require support from the Marathas.

Vallabh Ozarkar: Despite this, you still want to be in the government?

I have already given my resignation. Ask the Chief Minister to throw me out.

Chhagan Bhujbal

Mihir Vasavda: The current chief minister, Eknath Shinde, is at his position after several political developments. Does he have the authority on this subject?

Whether he has an authority or mandate to make decisions in concern with this matter, should be asked to him. I raise my voice wherever I think he is doing it wrong. All the documents pertaining to the court’s judgements are on record, which showed how false certificates pertaining to Maratha reservation were issued by the state.

Alok Deshpande: Many people have raised questions based on the legality of this ordinance. What’s your opinion?

The notification at the end clearly said that it is applied not only to OBCs, but also to Scheduled Castes, de-notified tribes, nomadic tribes and special backward category. Secondly, all the reports submitted by various commissions’ reports including Kakasaheb Kalelkar, BD Deshmukh, then BP Mandal Report, Mutatkar committee, and Khatri Committee have said that the Marathas are not backward. M G Gaikwad Commission approved but Supreme Court rejected. The word ‘Sage-Soyare’ has no mention in any religious or legal texts or any constitutional debates. How can government committees find out and decide the family tree, which this government is allowing? If the SC has said that the previous CMs belonging to the Maratha community did not include them in backward classes list, does it not mean that what is currently being done is wrong?

Alok Deshpande: If there are so many decisions by the courts, how is the government granting reservations, according to you?

The Chief Minister on January 25 said that he had taken the oath of Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj that he will give Maratha reservation and now he has fulfilled the promise. How has he given the reservation when the Maharashtra State Backward Class Commission is still working on Maratha reservation? The curative petition is before the Supreme Court. When the matter is before the Commission and Supreme Court how can anybody declare Maratha reservation? Also, if Maratha reservation is done, why is Jarange-Patil going on fast again.

Chhagan Bhujbal, senior NCP Leader and Minister of Food, Civil Supplies and Consumer Potection, in conversation with Alok Deshpande, Special Correspondent, The Indian Express, Mumbai.

Omkar Gokhale: Do you think Marathas have been misled?

I really don’t know. Once you set the process of issuance of Kunbi certificates, to all Marathas, then anybody can procure the certificates misusing the lacuna and claim reservation under OBC.

Vijay Yadav: Are you going to court?

Yes definitely.

Sandeep Singh : How has your communication been with the CM, and the two Deputy CMs on this issue?

If they don’t want to discuss, what can I do. I am putting across my views through public rallies and public forums.

Sandeep Singh: Will this be the biggest poll plank in Maharashtra?

It will certainly be an issue.

Shubhangi Khapre: Do you think the CM wanted to project himself as a leader of Marathas?

It is possible. Messiah of Marathas.

Zeeshan Shaikh: Congress has asked for 50 per cent reservation to be removed. Is that something that needs to be done?

Yes. I’ve been saying from the start about undertaking a caste census, and then it will be revealed how untrue are things that all the political parties feel. Especially that the Marathas are 60 per cent. Second, increase EWS by more 10 per cent. Before EWS, many agitations of Jat, Patidar, Kapu were going on. From the day EWS was announced, all those people turned silent.

Alok Deshpande: Do you see a national role as an OBC leader?

My only concern is to save the OBC quota first. What would I do with the national role?

Shubhangi Khapre: Do you think there was politics within the government? Did Eknath Shinde want to undermine Mr Fadnavis or Ajit Pawar?

What I can see, you can also see. I am going to rallies and openly saying things.

Sandeep Singh: You will become politically the most important person to consolidate these castes.

I don’t care about what happens to me. I am only concerned about the OBCs. We will consolidate these castes and will create fear of losing OBC votes among leaders.

Mohamed Thaver: Do you fear any action for speaking out?

I am not scared of anything.

Shubhangi Khapre: Why do you think Devendra Fadnavis is not speaking on this issue?

He is kind of helpless. Maybe, he feels that he will be targeted for being a Brahmin. Also, there is an election ahead.

Zeeshan Shaikh: Do you fear backlash from Maratha voters?

I’m not bothered about my ministership or MLA chair. But take it from me, I would be elected with a thumping majority, for the fifth time, on the basis of my work. And Marathas would also vote for me as they want development.