‘Poland and India are victims of transnational terror… we condemn crossing of international borders either by tanks or by terrorists in the strongest of terms’

I sent my reports to The Statesman in Calcutta (now Kolkata), when I used to freelance. So my stories were published in Britain, in the US, and in India. India at that time was sympathetic to the Afghan resistance, while also maintaining relations with the communist regime.So there was a great deal of interest in the story of the Soviet occupation and of Afghan resistance, because the outcome was not obvious. Most people assumed that the mighty Soviet Union would win the war in Afghanistan, and not only did it lose the war, it was the expense of that war that contributed to the economic collapse of the Soviet empire.

So your journey from being a journalist to a politician, how did that come about?

So many journalists become politicians, and so many politicians write op-eds and opinion pieces, because we do similar things. We analyse and digest information from our own countries and from around the world, and try to shape it into arguments about policy. Of course, as a politician, you have to ask for the support of your voters. But as a journalist,you also need the approval of your readers.

You came to India before, in the 1980s. What is the kind of change that you see from then to now?

India has progressed. I’ve been to Mumbai, Kerala on a family holiday. And you’re steadily progressing economically. From Europe, we find it interesting intellectually. The proposition of whether the Chinese route to prosperity with autocratic politics and relatively free economy, or whether the Indian route to prosperity, breaking down trade barriers and stimulating enterprise while having real elections, what will be more efficient in the long term. And recently, I am glad to say India is accelerating.

Jaishankar raised the issue of India being selectively targeted on tariffs and buying Russian oil. How do you respond to this?

We have sanctioned Russia because it broke the Budapest Memorandum, under which Ukraine gave up its nuclear weapons. Russia also violated the border treaty between the two countries — actually signed by Vladimir Putin — and breached the UN Charter by invading another sovereign nation. In these specific circumstances, the international community’s decision to impose sanctions and take countermeasures against the aggressor is justified. In many other circumstances, it would not be.

He also raised the issue of your visit to Pakistan in October last year, where the Kashmir issue was part of the statement. What is your response?

We all have our regional concerns, and we all have our neighbours. And with neighbours, you have opportunities and challenges. So yes, we did discuss it. On terrorism, we are on the same page. But, we also have our concerns as India took part in the Zapad exercises in Russia that we find to be threatening. So, I was very glad that we were able to have a candid discussion.

Poland and India are countries that are interested in upholding the principles of international law. Both of our countries are victims of transnational terrorists and therefore we condemned the crossing of international borders either by tanks or by terrorists in the strongest of terms.

About India-Poland bilateral relationship, what are the areas of cooperation you’re looking at?

Well, first of all, there is history. We were very grateful to India for having given shelter to 6,000 Polish refugees from Russian concentration camps during the Second World War. Some of them were taken care of at the private expense of Maharaja Jam Sahib. Polish refugees contributed to India’s cultural heritage. I’m one of many Poles who have travelled to India as tourists. We greatly enjoyed our time in Kerala, and we encourage more of our tourists to visit your country.

I hope your people notice the direct daily flight between Delhi and Warsaw. And we have also started investing in India. Every time you open a can of Coca Cola or Indian tonic water, please note that the can itself is the product of a Polish company in India.

How about the FTA negotiations between India and the EU?

Well, as a result of both (Russian President) Vladimir Putin’s challenge to international peace and the new policies of the United States — as Europe and India, we are much closer to a Free Trade Agreement than we ever were in the past.

We’ve just signed the agreement with Mercosur (bloc of South American countries), which was in the making for 25 years and is controversial, but both sides saw that there is a geopolitical need for it. I think the logic of geopolitical need applies to the EU-India FTA negotiations.

Do you think it would be signed by the time EU’s leaders Ursula von der Leyen and Antonio Costa come to India for the Republic Day function?

I can’t say, but between major countries or groups of countries, you try to keep free trade and trade flowing. To my mind, that’s a good thing.

How does Poland benefit from that? What are the sectors that Poland will be interested in investing in India?

I understand that the agricultural sector will mostly be excluded. We have a competitive heavy machinery sector, which I understand India would need, but it’s your judgement to make.

You come at a time when the war in Ukraine is going to be almost four years next month. What is the status of the peace negotiations?

The Russians managed to defeat Hitler in four years, but cannot conquer Donbas. Every day, the special military operation has been somewhat extended.

So what is your sense of where this war is headed?

Right now, only one person knows that. Because only one person could end it the same day. And that’s the aggressor, the person who made this criminal, catastrophic error of launching this war. And that of course is Vladimir Putin.

Trump said he could end the war on Day 1, and he started the negotiations, but there is no end in sight?

You would appreciate that diplomacy is harder than some people think.

What about the sticking points on negotiations, in terms of security guarantees and territory?

Well, I don’t blame anybody for trying to mediate the end of a war. And when you have a war, you don’t negotiate with friends or even competitors. You need to bring enemies closer together, but the point is that we should be putting pressure on the aggressor and not forcing the victim to capitulate, which is why Poland and Europe have been sustaining Ukraine for these years.

So do you see the security guarantees being extended to Ukraine in the coming months and years?

Of course, that’s for Ukraine’s judgement to make. But let me remind your readers that Ukraine already has security guarantees — first of all, from Russia and the United States. Secondly, under the Budapest Memorandum of 1994, under which Ukraine traded its nuclear arsenal for those guarantees. In addition, Vladimir Putin solemnly signed and ratified a border treaty between the two countries. So we need to be persuaded that Russia has flouted both of those agreements, will it keep the next one? I will need a lot of persuasion.

What about territory? Putin says he wants to keep not just Donbas, but also more…

In Europe, we have fought two bloody world wars to establish a norm that a country will not invade other people’s territory just because there are some compatriots on the other side of an international border. This is not a valid reason for sending troops.

After the Second World War, we established the Council of Europe with its Convention on the Protection of Minorities, and there are plenty of borders in the world, including in Europe, which are artificial. And there are many places in Europe where the international borders do not exactly match ethnic realities.

My family’s favourite place for skiing is the Dolomites, which the Italians call Alto Adige and Germans, Südtirol. And there used to be a horrible battle there during World War 1, in which hundreds of thousands of people died. Today, it’s autonomous. All the street signs are in three languages because they also have a local language. Three languages are taught in schools, and everybody’s happy making money. So we’ve the European way — to not change borders, but to make them invisible — so that people can enjoy peace, freedom and prosperity, rather than succumb to the vanities of old men who want to make their place in history.

How do you see India’s role, given its traditional ties with Russia, in this war on Ukraine?

After the collapse of the Soviet Union, under the weight of its own crimes, we all were hoping that Russia would take a more democratic course. But now it’s a full blown dictatorship — actually more repressive than the Soviet Union.

In the last two decades of its existence, Russia has had more political prisoners than the Soviet Union during the Brezhnev period. And the direction of travel matters.

In its last decades, the Soviet Union was trying to become more predictable. Whereas Russia is travelling in the other direction. I hope India takes this into account in its calculations. India, we understand, purchased a lot of military equipment from the Soviet Union. This equipment is not performing too well either in Ukraine or in Iran, or, in fact, in Venezuela. So we understand you need spare parts, but Europe is now rearming itself, and Europe will now be producing much better equipment.

Also, for the non-aligned movement to be credible, you can’t ignore, in a European country, Russia is trying to re-establish its empire. I think we agree on this, that the time of European empires is over, and that border disputes should be resolved by diplomacy, not by cross-border aggression or terrorism.

We think there is a lot of disinformation peddled at great expense by the Russian Federation to hide the fact that they are fighting a colonial war. Both Ukraine and Poland were victims of 19th century European colonialism, as was India. And I hope the people and the politicians of India see this war for what it is, which is an attempt to rebuild an aggressive empire.

India started to reduce its oil imports after the threat of 50% tariffs from the Trump administration. What do you make of that?

This was wise, and I have personally thanked Dr Jaishankar for this. Also, because we are now successfully restricting the movement of the oil tanker fleet, so the oil that Russia tries to smuggle to India might not actually be able to do that.

You mentioned earlier about the defence equipment that Europe is producing now. Is there a scope for defence cooperation?

We are drawing lessons from this war. The first drone war was Armenia-Azerbaijan, but it was low level. This is the first-large scale drone war, and all our militaries have to rethink that you need to have the full spectrum of defence.

I’m sure your military is following the trends in Europe, because we are so close and because we are already supplying (arms to) Ukraine. I believe we are ahead of the curve from other parts of the world and therefore open for business.

President Donald Trump has disrupted the global order by walking out of international pacts and even putting pressure on the Transatlantic Alliance. How do you view this development?

On Europe’s need to stop reaping its peace dividend and start contributing more to the strength of NATO, President Trump was right — both on substance and in his inimitable style. Because when previous American Presidents said it with American politeness, it didn’t work. So, I give President Trump credit on this one. As a result, we have doubled our spending on defence since his first term. And we’ve now pledged ourselves to double again. So, by the end of the decade, Europe will, on an average, be spending 3.5% of GDP on defence. Poland is ahead of the curve. We are already at 4.7% —but that’s because Russia threatens us.

But Trump has also taken a more interventionist approach in Venezuela, challenging international law. How do you view that?

Also give credit to President Trump, but also to Vladimir Putin — NATO has actually been enlarged by two valuable members, Sweden and Finland. Well, we are drawn to be frank on Venezuela because it wasn’t exactly according to procedures. But on the other hand, it couldn’t have happened to a nicer guy.

A year from now, how are you looking forward to seeing the wars in the world coming to an end?

Well, there have been wars going on every year for the last 80 years since the Second World War, so I don’t expect all of them to end in a year’s time.

…The world is full of predators and conflicts… As responsible countries we, I’m sure, India and Poland and the European Union will work towards limiting human suffering and try to resolve some of those conflicts without having to go to war. We were hoping that Russia would become another democracy, but Russia chose another way.

Unfortunately, money that we could spend on development, on fighting climate change, on medicine or whatever, we are being forced to spend on defence. I wish it were otherwise, but this is being imposed on us by an aggressive neighbour.