Mallikarjun Kharge at Idea Exchange: ‘Leaders may run scared but Congress grassroot workers have not gone anywhere’

Manoj CG: Prime Minister Narendra Modi says abki baar 400 paar (BJP will cross 400 seats). Congress leader Rahul Gandhi says the BJP won’t even cross 150. What’s your realistic assessment?

It’s difficult to believe everything Modiji says. This is the first PM I’m seeing who exaggerates so much. But his dream won’t come true. We’ll show the BJP that it’s not the Opposition but the people who want change. The BJP’s nervousness is evident from the fact that its leaders are campaigning intensely in every gully compared to the past when they would hold just two or three meetings in a district. Whoever they had called corrupt and declared would be jailed have now been inducted in their fold. Modiji is nervous himself. The INDIA alliance will come back with strong numbers and defeat them.

Manoj CG: If Modiji is so nervous, why are Congress leaders joining the BJP?

This isn’t new. In 1969, when the Congress split, everyone left Indira Gandhi. We lost our symbol after another split in 1978. In 1984, the late Pranab Mukherjee floated his own party (Rashtriya Samajwadi Congress) and took some leaders with him. People leave us when they find the grass greener on the other side. On the other hand, Modiji has weaponised the Enforcement Directorate (ED), Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) and Income Tax, which he uses from time to time to scare people. The establishment threatens to close businesses and their owners buy electoral bonds so that they are let off the hook. Ours is not a politics of coercion.

I’ve been in one party for 53 years. I have been part of Congress rule for 20 years and seen its days in the Opposition for 30 years. People like me don’t leave. That’s because my political goal is to serve society on principles, not power. That flows from the days of Mahatma Gandhi. The Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS) did not support Gandhiji’s Quit India movement.

Only scared people run. Our grassroot worker is intact. If the leader goes, it doesn’t make any difference. If the booth-level or block-level worker goes, it’s very worrisome. And these workers haven’t gone anywhere. So there’s no reason to worry.

PM says the Constitution is like the Gita for him. But for 140-crore people, the Constitution is the Gita, Bible, Quran, Guru Granth Sahib and more. Your fundamental rights
are protected

Liz Mathew: The Congress is the only party in the current INDIA bloc with a pan-India responsibility. While you have stronger allies in the south, you have to win the north and the Hindi heartland to make a difference. Which states are you expecting to do well in?

We are weak in some parts of northern India, like UP, parts of Bihar and Uttarakhand. But we have got strong alliance partners in the Samajwadi Party (SP) in UP and Rashtriya Janata Dal (RJD) in Bihar. We have got enough strength in Punjab, Rajasthan, Madhya Pradesh, Chhattisgarh, Maharashtra and even Assam. We are doing better in Odisha. In Bengal, the alliance could not take off for various reasons but we still have hope given the violence there and a desire to prevent Modi. We are sacrificing some seats because the Congress will definitely try to mobilise and accommodate everybody to save the Constitution and democracy.

Congress president Mallikarjun Kharge

Liz Mathew: Both you and Rahul Gandhi keep saying that this is an ideological fight. But when it comes to certain issues like the Uniform Civil Code, the Congress has not opposed them. Your manifesto does not mention the Citizenship Amendment Act (CAA). Do you think post the abrogation of Article 370, talking about certain issues could be tricky?

We discuss such issues and do not see them from the winning or losing perspective. There are bigger issues like unemployment and inflation which the PM never talks about. Has he fulfilled his promise of providing two crore jobs to the youth every year? Even IITians and doctors are not able to find jobs. Modi has destroyed the youth completely.

In 2014, he had promised to bring back black money and deposit Rs 15 lakh in every citizen’s bank account. Has that happened? Has he doubled farmers’ income? Not yet. But the UPA government, without anybody asking, has given guarantees like the Food Security Act, the Mahatma Gandhi National Rural Employment Guarantee Act (MNREGA), the Compulsory Education Act and the Rural Health Mission. We have given people rights and those cannot be scrapped. Not like Modiji, saying one thing and doing another.

The PM always says fight for the nation. We are the people who fought for independence. Where was the RSS or Jan Sangh then? He says the Constitution is like the Gita for him. But for 140-crore people, the Constitution is the Gita, Bible, Quran, Guru Granth Sahib and more. Your fundamental rights are protected, freedom of speech is protected, your education is protected, your religion is protected by the Constitution. Why should we create unnecessary controversies around what is already enshrined? Just to win an election?

Harikishan Sharma: The Congress says the BJP is weaponising investigative agencies against the Opposition. Will you reform or disband them should you come to power?

We should first do things right. The CBI is with the PM. ED should be the Finance Minister’s department. Why has Home Minister Amit Shah kept the ED with him? Why is the Ministry of Cooperation with the Home Minister? Because he wants to control sugar factories and district cooperative banks. This intention is wrong. You are concentrating all power to yourself and harassing and squeezing people. I thought washing machines only wash clothes. I didn’t know Shah sahab has one to clean people also. Nobody is above the nation. So we will do whatever is needed to save the nation.

Keeping our opponents in suspense is what we do. We won’t leave it (Rae Bareli) empty, obviously. We’ll tell you. You’ll be surprised, too

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Deeptiman Tiwary: Although you mentioned unemployment and prices as key electoral issues, the Congress and INDIA bloc narrative is about saving the Constitution and democracy. That’s why the Congress is being criticised for not feeling the people’s pulse. Do you agree?

This is wrong. We are agitating against rising prices across states. Every district Congress committee worker has agitated in front of the collector’s office, in public spaces and led processions. We have sat in dharna before the Gandhi statue and Vijay Chowk over jobs. Nobody is paying any attention to question paper leaks that ruin students’ lives, the plight of gig workers or delays in filling government service vacancies. To create employment, Jawaharlal Nehru made so many industries, dams and power projects. Inflation is up.

We talk about democracy and Constitution together because good governance flows from them and if we had good governance, we wouldn’t have had such issues.

Shyamlal Yadav: Your manifesto talks about a socio-economic caste census. In 2011, the UPA government had done one such census despite the resistance of senior leader P Chidambaram but its data was never made public. Your government said the data wasn’t reliable though Rs 5,000 crore was spent. How will you correct the gaps?

This will be the decision of the INDIA alliance. For example, people in Bengal have reservations and want the socio-economic census done differently, not on the basis of caste. You mentioned Chidambaram sahab. Now he’s the manifesto chairman. So there won’t be any problem this time. Rahul Gandhi and us will work to implement this properly.

Harish Damodaran: Although your party introduced reforms and ushered in liberalisation, of late, there is a feeling that much of the Congress rhetoric is borrowed from the Left and is not industry-friendly. Doesn’t such a perception put off investors?

You said it. We liberalised the economy. We encouraged the private, public and the cooperative sectors. We are not against any corporate or industrialist provided they follow rules. There should be a level-playing field for everybody and we cannot be seen as promoting a monopoly or a few people. We support industrialists because without industry, you can’t create wealth or jobs. We also have to look at labourers, their wages, skill and health, for higher productivity. We are neither left nor right, we are centrist. We are following Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru’s path. Look back and you will see that our five-year plans were well-balanced. We supported many industrialists and encouraged their growth.

Jatin Anand: Although the Congress is in alliance with the Aam Aadmi Party (AAP) for the Delhi Lok Sabha election, it has not fielded a woman candidate. Your comment.

We’ve got three seats — Chandni Chowk, North East Delhi and North West Delhi. The last is a reserved seat. We have tried to balance various factors with whatever we’ve got. Of course, our best candidates are with us. In Punjab, we are fighting separately. So there is no problem in allocating seats there according to our terms.

Aakash Joshi: The Congress is probably contesting the lowest-ever number of seats, under 300. Did your party have to give up the scale of its national footprint because your allies did not compromise enough on seats?

We are contesting more than 350 seats and have announced 280 seats. Sometimes we have to accommodate and sacrifice seats, like we did in Maharashtra recently. The aim is to keep the alliance intact, fight unitedly and defeat the Modi government.

Sandeep Singh: Since the BJP is talking about winning 400 seats, it has trained its energies on southern states and Bengal to get extra seats. The Congress is only focussing on the south when it should be focussing on big states like UP and Maharashtra. You are not doing as many rallies either.

We have strong regional alliance partners. Wherever our leaders are required, we use them and wherever heavyweight leaders like Sharad Pawar and Uddhav Thackeray exist, they helm the campaign. But more campaigning is left in states and we have a phase-wise plan. We have tried to cover seven seats in the first phase.

Manoj CG: Why is there so much suspense about Rai Bareli?

Keeping our opponents in suspense is what we do. We won’t leave it empty, obviously. We’ll tell you. You’ll be surprised, too. Let’s see.

Lalmani Verma: In UP, you have an alliance with SP. But no SP leader came to campaign with top Congress leaders and vice-versa. Priyanka Gandhi held a press conference and roadshow on the last day of campaigning for the first phase. The opposition was again missing. How will you challenge the BJP in such places?

In this campaign, we had just one seat from the beginning. Besides SP workers let us know wherever we are needed and we attend those rallies. But if it’s not needed, no point creating unnecessary conflicts with each other. Rahulji and Akhileshji (SP leader Akhilesh Yadav) held a press conference in Bengaluru. They delivered speeches in Mandya and Kolar, too. The rest, we’ll go where needed. The PM has so many resources that he goes to each place 10 times. Remember, our accounts have been frozen.

Manoj CG: When Delhi Chief Minister Arvind Kejriwal was arrested, and Congress accounts were frozen, there were discussions that the Opposition would boycott the elections entirely. Was this ever discussed?

I don’t know. Maybe some have had that idea. It’s not that if you have a cold, you cut off your nose. You should find a solution and the public finds it. So we are preparing them. Once they stand up, these people will run away.

Liz Mathew: Modiji has been talking about how Congress boycotted the consecration ceremony of the Ram Mandir in Ayodhya. Some Congressmen, like a leader from Gujarat, even criticised the party publicly. Looking back, do you think you should have participated?

This is a matter of personal faith. Whosoever wants to visit the temple and offer prayers can go on that day, next day or any other day. The PM is not a pujaari, so why should he take the lead in consecrating the temple? He just did it for political purpose as not even one-third of the temple is complete yet.

He invited me, Mallikarjun Kharge, leader of the Opposition, and Sonia Gandhiji. Had he invited us as party representatives? Was it a political or a religious function? Why mix religion with politics?

Truth be told, my people (Dalits) are not allowed into temples even today. Leave the Ram Mandir aside, Dalits have to fight for entry at even the smallest of village temples. You don’t allow Dalits access to drinking water or educational institutions. You don’t even allow bridegrooms ride the horse in a procession. People pull them down and beat them up. If they keep a moustache, they ask them to shave it off. Did they expect me to attend? Rather, would they have tolerated my presence?

They did not allow the first citizen of this country, President Draupadi Murmu, to be present with the PM. Neither was she invited during the inauguration of the Parliament despite being the political head of the country. You did not allow former President Ramnath Kovind to lay the foundation stone of the new Parliament. So what kind of Dalit representation are they talking about? There are Scheduled Castes and Tribes. They talk about our rights and then humiliate us. And all you can say is that the Congress didn’t come.

I don’t have any animosity. So if they allow my people to worship, we will worship all 33 crore gods and goddesses. Till my people get real freedom, where do I go?

Shyamlal Yadav: If INDIA alliance wins, and Congress gets to lead, will you convince Rahul Gandhi to step back and let someone else take the lead?

After 1989, which Gandhi family member became a PM, deputy PM, CM or a Central minister? Just abusing the Gandhi family, that’s all Modiji does. The BJP targets them because they think if the family finishes, the Congress finishes and the BJP will get a free hand with RSS. This is their plan. First we’re getting an alliance together. Nobody will take a decision individually. We’ll decide together based on the numbers we get.