Bhupender Yadav at Express Adda: ‘Climate justice doesn’t mean that you let the world be in darkness’

Bhupender Yadav in conversation with Amitabh Sinha, Resident Editor, Pune, and Anant Goenka, Executive Director, The Indian Express Group. (Express Photo by Praveen Khanna)

It was decided in Paris that all the countries will strengthen NDCs after five years but this exercise was delayed by two years due to the pandemic. In 2021, at the Glasgow COP26, PM Narendra Modi announced his five-point climate agenda, called ‘Panchamrit’. Accordingly, India has now said it would revise its renewable target to 50 per cent, and the emission intensity target to 45 per cent. India is among 30 countries to have upgraded its NDC. PM Modi also announced Mission LiFE, which is about behavioural changes, both at the individual and community level, to fight climate change.

India has also launched three big climate action groups. In 2015, we partnered with France to form the International Solar Alliance which now has a membership of 130 countries. In Glasgow, the Prime Minister talked about One Sun, One World, One Grid, an effort to connect electricity grids across the world so that solar power can be harnessed uninterrupted. Recently, the Cabinet has given the approval to the Coalition for Disaster Resilient Infrastructure (CDRI), which is the second international organisation that we have created. This will help in the creation of more resilient infrastructure in developing countries that can withstand natural disasters. Then, with Sweden, we have launched the Leadership Group for Industry Transition or LeadIT with the objective of getting governments, industries and other organisations together in the fight against climate change. LeadIT works on hard-to-abate industries such as the aluminum, cement, and transport sectors, which have a high carbon footprint.

Mugdha Kaur Jaggi, Founding Member, Param Seva Foundation, presenting a bouqet to Yadav

On the need for sustainable consumption

Sustainable consumption is a global necessity. Our country’s population today is 17 per cent of the total world population, while our carbon emission is four per cent. The population of the developed world is also 17 per cent but their carbon emission is about 60 per cent. Their higher carbon intensity is because of their consumptive lifestyle.

As places develop, there will be an increase in energy demand. That is why we talk about climate justice. We have to provide electricity to 125 crore population. But is a more sustainable lifestyle possible? We think, it is. How much water we consume in the shower, at what temperature we run our air conditioners, whether we switch off lights when we are not in the room. These issues need to be discussed.

Also, India has now taken over G20 presidency. One of the things we are working on is circular economy, which involves strengthening our reusing and recycling capabilities. Recently, I was having a chat with UNEP executive director Inger Andersen and we were discussing Mission LiFE. She made an interesting remark… that we are taking out useful things from nature, and returning it in the form of waste. We talk about civic sense, moral sense, legal sense… it is time we talk about environmental sense as well.

Guests greeting Union Minister Bhupender Yadav at Express Adda

The biodiversity COP is happening in Montreal. Of the total water bodies worldwide in the 17th century, only 13 per cent are left. We are actively working towards rejuvenation of lakes and other water bodies. I have always said that if forests are our lungs, wetlands are our kidneys. The Paris Agreement actually acknowledges that civilisational values, which consider nature as mother, must be respected.

On the difference between ‘phase-out’ and ‘phase-down’ of fossil fuels

Today, civilisation can’t survive without energy. The international rules on climate change are very clear. Climate action by any country has to be mindful of the circumstances and constraints in that country. In Glasgow, some of the countries asked for the phase out of coal. Now, a large number of developing countries are dependent on coal. If coal has to be phased out, then at least the developed countries should fulfil their commitments on climate finance to help the transition to cleaner fuels. But the developed countries haven’t even delivered on the US$ 100 billion commitment. They are supposed to provide both finance and technology.

Today, the western countries have increased their usage of coal and gas. Every country should have this right to assess its needs and use fuel according to the circumstances it finds itself in. And global warming is being caused not just by burning of coal, but by all fossil fuels. So why should coal be singled out for phase-out? All fossil fuels should be phased out, including gas which is being used widely in western countries. That is why we keep talking about climate justice.

The other issue which we saw some progress on is loss and damage. This issue was pending for 30 years. The most vulnerable countries have made minimal contribution to global warming. But they face a lot of climate disasters. Who is going to compensate for the loss and damage they face? India was at the forefront of developing countries demanding a loss-and-damage architecture. India is a strong voice of the developing world. We are a big country, and it is our responsibility to take up the case of the developing countries, while making our own contribution towards climate actions. We have always maintained that in climate change, India is a solution, not a problem. We will fulfil our targets, make our contributions, but would also ask for climate justice.

(Left to right) The team of Vision IAS — Sarthak Gautam, Marketing Manager; Aman Singhmar, Head, Marketing and Business Development; Shiwanshu Dwivedi, Marketing Manager

On why climate change is never an election issue in India

I feel environment will be the biggest issue in the future. Actually, there are three major environmental issues on which all the countries assemble and discuss, and have these COPs (conference of parties). The one on climate change has become very big. But there is a similar discussion going on on desertification. Desertification is also a very big challenge. Shortage of fertile land and degradation are threats to food security in the future. The third issue is biodiversity, whose COP is happening in Montreal right now. Humans exploit about 50,000 different varieties of flora and fauna for its needs, be it food, medicine, oil, energy or even cosmetics. Unsustainable consumption of biodiversity will lead to an imbalance in nature.

These issues have become so prominent that they have triggered green movements in several countries. And I think these issues will become even bigger in the coming years. They would require regular policy interventions. So, it might not be an election issue today, but in five or 10 years, this will be very important in elections too.

Nuramira Akmal Mustapa, Councellor-Political, High Commission of Malaysia; Nagai Mihoko, First Secretary-Environment, Embassy of Japan

On whether development issues fetch more votes than environmental

There should not be any contradiction between development and environmental concerns. I will give you an example. We have just constructed a new underpass below Pragati Maidan. We got an assessment done through TERI. Its report is publicly available. It shows that this underpass has eliminated substantial amount of pollution, smoke, vehicular emissions from the traffic jams that used to be common at that site. This kind of infrastructure will have to be built. Climate action does not mean that everyone has to go back to darkness. Every person has a right to live with dignity. The mistake that we often make is to consider that this planet is only for human beings. This is for all life forms. If this world only had human beings, and no forests, no animals, no birds, no rivers, would anyone even like such a world? So the issue isn’t environment or development, but balanced development. Between 1965 and 2000, the population of the Great Indian Bustard in our country had declined from 1,500 to 200. We are now actively working for this bird’s conservation and breeding, which are the only ways to save it. We need to have moderated development, conserve the bird, as well as fulfill the country’s energy needs through renewables. Votes are not an issue. Ultimately, policy-makers are faced with building the best human civilisation.

Jaya Jaitley, Founder, Dastkari Haat Samiti (Express photo by Praveen Khanna)

On environmental clearance for the Greater Nicobar Island development project

In the Greater Nicobar project, only 1.5 per cent of the total area of Nicobar Islands will be affected. There must be a balanced approach between development and conservation. To counter (the cutting of eight lakh trees in Nicobar), compensatory afforestation is being done on a 130 sq km area in one of the main regions of the country and even in Delhi-NCR, which requires trees for better air. The entire scientific report is out there that has all the analysis.

(From left to right) Devin Narang, Prakash Hinduja, Ajit Kumar, Anant Goenka and Anmol Singh Jaggi in a candid moment

On the opposition to genetically modified crops

Should we not promote scientific research? If scientists of Delhi University have developed this GM mustard, can’t we test it out? How can there be resistance to scientific trials, according to well-prescribed rules? There is a food security angle too. Right now, nearly 55-60 per cent of edible oils in India are imported. And much of these are from genetically modified varieties of crops. In many countries, only GM varieties of oilseeds are being grown. So it is okay to import GM crops from other countries, but not to carry out our own research on GM? Are we a closed society? I acknowledge the concerns on pollinators, on honeybees. But unless we go ahead with scientific trials we wouldn’t know how, and to what extent, these are being impacted. Scientific research must be allowed. We must move towards self-reliance.

On the change in voting patterns

The right to vote has been given to the individual, not to the family. So, if this is happening, it is a welcome development. Earlier, an entire village would vote on the direction of one person. But there is strength in our democracy. There’s an openness. I don’t feel bad even if family members vote differently. It should happen because that is democracy. Everyone is entitled to their own choice. But everyone must vote. Many people talk a lot but don’t vote. As society progresses, political campaigning and the subjects of political communication change. In the 1950s, ideology used to be a big issue. Today, I think people have moved beyond ideologies, which have both good and bad implications. In the 50s, great orators were liked. Later, TV debaters were preferred. Then came the age of social media. Communication and ideologies change. Urbanisation, publicity, and economic wealth will increase and people will move to the cities. This will change the social climate. The issues will also change. If we can change our Constitution according to the changing needs, then the voting pattern will change. An evolving society
is good.

On the government’s position on the Supreme Court order on pensioners

We are reviewing the judgment, which deals with Section 6A in The Provident Funds Act, 1925, regarding schemes. We will soon make a decision in this regard after reviewing the judgment. In the Ministry of Labour, there are two major departments. The Employees’ State Insurance Corporation (ESIC), where we get a chance to serve the labourers. There are 160 ESIC hospitals and 18 medical colleges in the country. We have 3.90 crore Insured Persons (IP) and 12 crore beneficiaries. We have an EPFO fund of 6.5 crore subscribers and its value is Rs 18 lakh crore. They are our biggest trust. The government maintains transparency in this.

(From right) Bhupender Yadav, Union Cabinet Minister for Environment, Forests and Climate Change and Labour and Employment, with Amitabh Sinha, Resident Editor, Pune, and Anant Goenka, Executive Director, The Indian Express Group

On the need for reforms in labour rules

We have subsumed 29 Labour Acts and made four codes — the Code on Wages, Industrial Relations Code, Social Security Code, and the Occupational Safety, Health, and Working Conditions Code. In the earlier acts, the employer would have been penalised even if they didn’t paint the toilet walls. So we have ended such laws through these new codes and limited the rules to bodily injury cases. We have got these codes to increase the ease of doing business and ease of progress. Several state governments are bringing in their own reforms.

On whether Punjab farmers will be penalised for burning crops

After working on it for a year, crop burnings have reduced by 40 per cent in Haryana. The reason for that is a 2-lakh-tonne ethanol plant near Panipat. We have installed plants through the CPCB too. Burnings have reduced in Punjab too. Only two districts had more burnings. If we sincerely focus on reusing and recycling, we can completely reduce the burning by next year. Those who sold biomass in Delhi for advertisements of Rs 24 crore, refused the usage of biomass in Punjab. If you were successful with biomass in Delhi, then why are you stopping it in Punjab?

QUICK QUESTIONS

Organisation or government, what do you prefer?The organisation is important
because it’s through the organisation that can you come in the government.

You read a lot. Who is your favourite non-fiction author?
I can’t name just one — I read everyone, both from the Left and the Right.

Name one non-BJP politician whom you admire.
Lifelong, I’ve been a huge admirer of Ram Manohar Lohia ji.

Name one non-BJP Prime Minister you admire the most.
He didn’t get the chance and was betrayed, but I think Charan Singh was a leader with a deep understanding of this country.

In 2024, the biggest competition will come from — AAP or Congress?
The country’s main Opposition is the Congress but I’m not sure how much of a competition there will be.

Any NGO in India whose work you admire?
TERI (The Energy and Resources Institute), but there are others, too.

Between the BJP and the RSS, who is the big brother?
The relationship is not that of big brother. We are people who came from the RSS thought process. The BJP works as an independent political party.

Welfare, identity or development, what’s the strongest election tool?
Welfare.

VOICE BANK

Harsh Shrivastava
Executive Director, Blue Circle Medi Services

Climate change action is being spearheaded by the Central government. What should be done to motivate the 30 state governments for climate action? There is no training for forest staff in the states, which leaves them at the bottom of the pyramid.

As there is a National Climate Action Plan (NCAP), similarly, there is a State Climate Action Plan (SCAP). There is a Central committee that coordinates this matter. Our adaptation plans are carried out differently in different states. We are working on the capacity-building of forest staff and we have several centres for that in Coimbatore and Assam. We have registered contractual staff on the e-SHRAM portal. We have also received the report from the committee headed by former IAS officer Keshav Saran Varma. We are working on the philosophy of Mission Karmayogi for capacity-building.

Shyam Bagri
Founder, Bagrry’s India Private Limited

Shyam Bagri

Shouldn’t we hold awareness campaigns for citizens to become more climate-conscious and help them bring about lifestyle changes? Also, why not penalise people if they harm the environment?

In June, this year, PM Modi asked all countries for their suggestions and ideas (to combat climate change). When I talk to African, Latin American and developing countries, I ask about their civilisation values. PM Modi launched Mission LiFE in Gujarat in October, along with UN Secretary-General Antonio Guterres. At COP27, we honoured youths from countries with innovative ideas for climate action. In a Ministry consultation, we decided to plan programmes for universities, women and gram sabhas. It would be good if newspapers had a section for behavioural change, which people could look forward to.

Dr GR Patil
Samkalp IAS

Dr GR Patil

What is the government planning to do about the waste generated from solar panels in 10 years’ time?

Like we have brought in rules for plastic, rubber and electronic waste, and EPR Policy for big companies, we have started work on the regularisation process of the reuse and circular economy policy. For e-waste, we have decided on the collection process of three-four years for 100 per cent collection.