German Ambassador Philipp Ackermann: ‘Indian migration is a success in Germany… I am impressed how Indians have integrated into the German labour market’

German ambassador Philipp Ackermann (right) in conversation with Shubhajit Roy, Diplomatic Editor, The Indian Express (Photo by Gajendra Yadav)

Shubhajit Roy: Could you talk about the FTA negotiations? What were the biggest challenges with India, and how were they unlocked?

When I first came here in 2007-2008, these negotiations had just started. After some time, both sides found it all too complicated, and the talks were put in the deep freeze for 10-12 years. Then, two or three years ago, people sat together again. At a time when free trade is no longer popular, we actually still want it. We like free trade. So it was a signal that we should sit together and try to work out a free trade agreement between India and Europe. When the EU does FTAs, it insists on very high social and environmental standards; then the carbon question came up. And the Indian side said: you have to come up with a tailor-made solution for us. I think the European Commission understood this. When the political pressure is there, the negotiating teams eventually agree. The big problem for Europe in free trade is agriculture. Very wisely, in this agreement, agriculture was largely excluded. Wines and spirits are included, but many products, where Indian agriculture is so different from European agriculture, were left aside. That was a good decision; it will make for an easier debate in the European Parliament because many there see free trade exclusively through the agricultural lens. With India, we also worked out how to word certain social and environmental standards so that they are not harmful to the Indian economy. And for Germany, the priorities were car-making and machinery. We were very satisfied with the outcome. After a long and sometimes tough negotiation period, everybody is quite happy with it.

Shubhajit Roy: A significant element of the Indo-German relationship has been the opening of doors to Indian students, businesses and skilled professionals. But with the rise of the far Right in German politics, do you see this accomplishment being put at risk in the future?

There is no doubt that migration, as in every other European country, is a contentious issue in Germany and a lot of people feel rather uneasy after the two big waves of migration: Syria in 2015-16 and Ukraine in 2022. But at the same time everybody who is exposed to the reality of Germany understands that there are areas where the country urgently needs talent. You need engineers, nurses and caregivers, and you need apprentices who start out in a craftsman’s workshop or as a butcher, a roofer or a baker. The federal government has understood that we need fair, legal migration channels for people who want to move to Germany. When you go to any hospital in Germany now, whether in the countryside or in the cities, you will find a lot of non-German personnel. Even when you talk to AfD (Alternative for Germany) politicians in the German Bundestag, they will concede, albeit grudgingly, that they too see the need for skilled labour in many areas.

Germany has a shrinking population. People will come to understand that these fair and legal immigration channels are good for the nation. There is a new Hindu temple in Berlin whose gopuram is the tallest in Europe; it took 20 years to build. I was very impressed by how well the Indians there had integrated into the German labour market after their studies. There is one problem, though: the German language. Beyond Berlin, getting by with English is a problem — German is an essential skill. But generally, Indian migration has been a success in Germany.

Shubhajit Roy: The war in Gaza has tested and stretched Germany’s support for Israel, which is rooted in post-war guilt. Is that support waning? How has the war complicated Germany’s relationship with Israel?

This goes to the very foundations of modern post-war Germany. Support for Israel among the population is really shrinking. When you talk to young people now, an increasing number of people are critical of the Israeli government. This includes major political parties — the Social Democrats, the Greens — who were very critical of the current government. Chancellor Friedrich Merz stopped delivering arms to Israel when he felt that the Gaza war got out of hand. So there is an incremental change underway. There will never be a moment when Germany is not defending the right of existence of Israel. But in Germany, you now have a movement that is very strongly pro-Palestinian. That also has to do with migration: we have a lot of Syrian, Palestinian and Arab migrants in Germany, and that leads to conflicts and frictions. But when you read the government’s policy statements on Israel, the main thing we now hear is harsh criticism of the settlements in the West Bank, which we consider illegal. I sense a certain cautious movement away from absolute support.

German ambassador Philipp Ackermann (right) in conversation with Shubhajit Roy, Diplomatic Editor, The Indian Express (Photo by Gajendra Yadav)

Shubhajit Roy: After Russia invaded Ukraine, you were forced to rearm. But Russia has not collapsed and is still fighting Ukraine. It has even got a fresh lease of life with the Strait of Hormuz closed.

Nobody wants the collapse of Russia. We had a long-standing relationship with Russia — there was a NATO-Russia Council, and Germans were explicitly reaching out to Russians, not only for business reasons but also for historical ones. We felt a responsibility towards a country that had suffered enormously during the Second World War. But what we woke up to one day was that Russia is an imperialist country that wants to invade other countries in order to enlarge its territory. That we cannot accept in Europe because we are built on the clear understanding that territorial integrity is one of the most sacred conditions under which states work with each other. It is the basis of our cooperation and cannot be touched. And we have seen that the Russians don’t care; they have no scruples about invading and they are willing to engage massively in the invasion of a country that is much smaller and weaker than them. It was a wake-up call, especially for my country, because after the war we believed we would live together in peace for eternity. That, unfortunately, did not turn out to be true. What we see now is Russia interfering heavily in every European country through cyber warfare. Just this morning we learned that there was a cyber attack on the electricity grid in Poland. It lasted only a couple of seconds and it would have succeeded if somebody had not intervened. Drones fly over airports all the time. So we are, in a way, under attack: not direct attack, but cyber attack, and we therefore have to put ourselves in a new position to counter it. This war has now lasted longer than World War I. It shows that we have to be in a better position to defend ourselves — because who is to say the Russians will not attack Estonia, or some other country they feel should not exist?

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Shubhajit Roy: You have come out in strong defence of NATO. But you have also seen the US commitment to the transatlantic partnership weaken, especially under President Trump. Last week, when he came for the NATO summit, he said he wouldn’t have come if it were not Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan hosting it.

But the alliance stands, and what Trump has, in a way, achieved is that every European country now spends more money on the military. And frankly, the Americans had a point. It was very comfortable for us — there was no threat, or no felt threat. Everybody was quite comfortable and said, let the Americans look after our security. But that was unfair, and everybody has understood that. In fact, previous US administrations made the same point — President Biden did, President Obama did — only more politely. The combination of Russia and Trump has led to a much more energetic resolve on this.

German ambassador Philipp Ackermann during the Idea Exchange. (Express Photo by Gajendra Yadav)

Sandeep Singh: Immigration is becoming a major electoral issue around the world. Do you see it as a temporary political shift, or a structural one?

The areas of Germany where there is the most suspicion of, or reluctance towards migration, are the parts where there is no migration. When people live in an environment where migration is normal, they don’t feel anti-migration. In Germany’s big cities, the AfD has a relatively small vote share, but when you go into the countryside, and especially into East Germany, where there is much less migration than in West Germany, it polls very high. It is psychological: there is a strong feeling of being overwhelmed, of being threatened in your way of life, cheated because people feel that migrants are undermining the social welfare system. So it is not rational. The question is what lies behind it and how do we heal it, work with it, cope with it. Life today is much more complicated than it was 20 years ago, and among these unhappy voters, this dissatisfaction with the present is also, in large part, nostalgia. People think life was much better in the old days. When I was growing up, a teacher in Germany could build his own house; that is no longer possible because everything has become so expensive. Globalisation is responsible for that. But one has to bring a certain pragmatism to it.

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Shubhajit Roy: One of Germany’s success stories has been skill development. Why has it not taken off in India? Is it about dignity of labour?

One difference between India and Germany is that craftsmanship is given dignity in Germany. I come from a very small town in Bavaria where the dignitaries were, basically, the craftsmen — not the notaries, the teachers or the doctors. The baker whose family has been there for 400 years, the butcher, the roofer: generations of good craftsmen selling good bread, sausage and beer. They were the ones running the town. They sat on the city council. That is not so much the case in India. Not yet.

German ambassador Philipp Ackermann (right) in conversation with Shubhajit Roy, Diplomatic Editor, The Indian Express (Photo by Gajendra Yadav)

Aakash Joshi: Remigration, which was once a fringe idea, is very real now. Once such ideas start gaining currency, the engagement is not always rational.

Remigration is a word Germans do not like to use; it is linked to the extreme Right. But what the current government has done is reduce illegal immigration. That shows the government has understood that people have this feeling of being overwhelmed by migration, and it has said: We will organise migration in such a way that those who are useful to our society come to Germany.

Aakash Joshi: Post Cold War, there was one model for emerging countries. Increasingly, there is a deeper engagement with the Chinese model and a questioning of the once championed liberal values.

The post-Cold War conviction that there is only one solution for the world — an open-minded liberal democracy in which everybody is free to find their own way — was not entirely correct. Besides China, there are other examples of countries that are performing well without being set up as Western liberal democracies, including Singapore and Vietnam. Rwanda is one of Africa’s big success stories. So we have to accept that there are different ways of structuring societies — as long as they do not threaten the territorial integrity of their neighbours.

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Jatin Anand: How do you evaluate India’s diplomatic footprint, especially under PM Modi?

India is becoming more and more a factor that you cannot ignore. All of us — not only India but also Europe — find ourselves in an environment that is far more difficult than it used to be. The war in the Gulf has made things difficult and it has had an impact on all our countries. Foreign policy, therefore, is much more complicated than it used to be.

Jatin Anand: On the raising of your defence budget, largely because of Trump’s demands: do you think there is actually space, and a need, for investment in conventional warfare amid AI and drone technology?

Yes. And it is not just because of Trump. The rearming of European nations is because of Russia. When you look at our investments, they are not only in conventional warfare but also in cyber warfare and other domains. We need a new generation of aircrafts. We have to invest heavily in modern war technology — drones and the like. And Ukraine will be one of the most interesting countries in the world from which to purchase non-conventional war material. Zelenskyy is travelling to Saudi Arabia and the UAE, and they are all interested in what Ukraine has to offer.

German ambassador Philipp Ackermann during the Idea Exchange. (Express Photo by Gajendra Yadav)

Kaushik Das Gupta: On the heat crisis in Europe: the cities were not built for such heat. What does that mean for green politics in Germany?

At the end of June, it was hotter in Berlin than here. The heatwave was linked to some 10,000 deaths in Europe. Air-conditioning is the first idea that comes to mind. But in southern European cities — in Spain, southern France and Italy — there are ways to make cities cooler without spending too much energy. Greenery is important, as are huge parasol-like structures for shade. We have to think about how to make our cities cooler and that architectural thinking is now reaching central and northern Europe too.

Raj Kamal Jha: In your public diplomacy you engaged with art, literature, culture. Now that you are leaving India, is there something that still puzzles you about the country? And as you head to Beijing, what is the big question on your mind about China?

India is a place that never stops surprising you. I will never say that I understand India. I understand parts of India, and I am emotional about them. But there are always situations where you think: how is that possible? I like that because India is always in flux. What is very striking is that in Europe there is a clear line between the rational and the irrational. In India, this line is blurred in a surprising and convincing way. As for China, everything one reads is about modern China — post-1945, Communist China, Mao Zedong. Unlike in India, where history, tradition and culture always play a big role, with China it is all about recent politics. But Chinese civilisation is thousands of years of art, culture and great inventions. I am very curious to discover the roots of China — roots that shaped today’s China, some of which, like Buddhism, came from India.