Chandrashekhar Azad at Idea Exchange: ‘Caste census must happen…This time, Opposition said the same thing that Kanshi Ram used to say 40 years ago’
He is doing his work, the decision is up to the people... We think our work is not complete. Kanshi Ram and Babasaheb’s mission is incomplete... It’s not done until the Constitution is followed truly and societal discrimination stops.
Chandrashekhar Azad (right), National President Azad Samaj Party and Bhim Army chief, in conversation with Deeptiman Tiwary, Deputy Associate Editor, The Indian Express. (Express Photo by Abhinav Saha) Chandrashekhar Azad, National President Azad Samaj Party and Bhim Army chief, on winning from Nagina constituency in the LS elections, taking forward the Bahujan cause and his disenchantment with the Opposition. The session was moderated by Deeptiman Tiwary, Deputy Associate Editor, The Indian Express
Deeptiman Tiwary: How was the historic win in Nagina possible? How hard did you have to work for it?
For the polls in Nagina, I had spoken to all the Opposition parties to fight together. I told them I would fight from only one seat and would help them in other seats. They declined my proposal. Then I thought that if I didn’t fight this election — winning or losing didn’t matter — then it would seem that I couldn’t fight. As I was the only one from India on TIME magazine’s annual list of 100 “emerging leaders who are shaping the future” (2021), I needed to prove myself. We covered more than 700 of the 1,200 villages (during campaigning). I would leave at 7.30-8 am and return next morning at 4-6 am. We told the people that they gave everyone a chance, give us a chance too, based on our work. In Nagina, three national parties were contesting, including alliances — the NDA, INDIA and BSP. People saw our work and voted for us.
Deeptiman Tiwary: Why do you think these parties didn’t want to align with you?
I think they don’t want an independent voice to rise from among the backward classes. They think whoever stands for elections has to be supported by them or under them so they can dictate how they work and not overstep. They believed if Chandrasekhar Azad stood for elections, it would give birth to a new politics… If you are in politics for the long haul, then fight from the place that your heart tells you to, even if you get only 20,000 votes… People from the Congress and the SP asked me to fight on their symbol. I said my name is Azad (free), let me fight with freedom. They didn’t agree with it and our talks ended.
Deeptiman Tiwary: Did you choose Nagina for any political symbolism because Mayawati once fought from this area, too?
We wanted to prove that the weaker sections are no one’s inheritance. It is said that they (the weaker sections) are only with Mayawati’s party, we wanted to disprove that. That area has a rich history — it has given the country big leaders. When I went there, I saw poverty because all parties had betrayed them. There’s unemployment, no proper educational institutions nor healthcare facilities. However, the people of that area have a lot of self-respect and like people who work hard… Mayawati, Meira Kumar and Ram Vilas Paswan fought from that area, it is a strong ground.
Deeptiman Tiwary: Five years ago, you said you would remain a social worker. What made you change your mind and form a political party?
After I was released from jail (in 2018), I didn’t leave the path of agitation. During this time, the UP government went to the High Court to cancel my bail appeal. As a lawyer, I understood that till my bail was cancelled, I had to surrender. So, I realised that this government is not letting me work outside… I tried talking to BSP people, too, to work together.
But when the Bhim Army would agitate and the police would beat up workers, lock them in jail, no political party would come to our rescue. Then I thought if the people are agitating on the streets, then they should be given a chance to agitate in Parliament.
I recalled BR Ambedkar’s words: “A queen’s son will not become the king, rather, the king will be chosen by ballot papers.” When I was arrested during the NRC protests, the police charged me with inciting violence through my speech. I had simply read the preamble of the Constitution. I thought that if I entered politics, then such incidents would stop… The issues we want to solve cannot be resolved without strength, which is the government. If we don’t contest, how will we enter the government and if we don’t come to power, how will we resolve people’s issues?
Liz Mathew: Last week, the entire Opposition staged a walkout in Parliament and you were sitting alone. Which side are you on?
Kanshi Ram said that those who agitate cannot compromise and vice-versa. When you saw me sitting alone, I was sitting in the extra line because I am new to the Parliament and I don’t know much about the place. I thought the Opposition leaders would ask me to sit with them. But even after three days, nobody cared… I decided that we would neither be Left or Right, we are Bahujans and we will stand with our demands. If there’s something wrong, we will oppose it and if there’s something good, we will analyse it and then make our decision… We have the aspirations of crores of people… If people are with us, why should we stand behind someone?
On opposition parties: They don’t want an independent voice to rise from among the backward classes… it would birth a new politics… The Congress and the SP asked me to fight on their symbol. I said my name is Azad
Deeptiman Tiwary: In November 2018, you said, “Let them build the temple. Then the supporters of the Constitution will show how to run the country.” When you said this, was there a fear among the Dalits?
The fear arose not in 2018 but in 2014 when the BJP came to power. The way we saw lateral entries and privatisation, they exhausted the constitutional opportunities for the deprived sections. This has been the thought of the BJP’s think-tank, the RSS, since the beginning… The BJP and RSS were never in support of the Constitution. Now the BJP looks changed… I believe this fear was born after the BJP came to power in 2014.
It was this fear that led to the alliance in 2019 in UP, and in 2024, it reached its peak with a collective sentiment to stop the BJP… This time, the Opposition said the same things that Kanshi Ram used to say 40 years ago — the rights of any group are proportionate to its population share… I raised this question in the media — Is there any Opposition leader who has won votes without invoking Ambedkarite thoughts? No one could deny this as behind the scenes, everyone asked for our help.
Vikas Pathak: Mayawati’s popularity has diminished, why has this happened?
The strength of any organisation is its ideology. When ideologies change, the cadre also changes. After Kanshi Ram passed away in 2006, there were a lot of changes. It’s not as if the BSP hurt any particular religion or caste when they came to power. They gave opportunities to uplift their people… But in 2007, the faith people had in the BSP was hurt. The leadership will know the reasons for this. I am not a BSP leader. I respect Mayawati. It is difficult for a woman from the Scheduled Caste (SC) to rise to power. I cannot comment on her, I don’t have the right to do so… I tried contacting her, but I never got her time. However, I would never want the BSP, a shining star in Indian politics, to ever get weak. I love that name and its symbol. (Although) She has always tried to put me down by calling me a criminal and levelling several allegations. Even when I was in jail and close to death, she never showed her support.
Shyamlal Yadav: Kanshi Ram wrote his book Chamcha Yug in 1982. From then to 2024, with years of Bahujan politics, do you think India’s condition has changed?
The change is that I am in Parliament. I raised concerns about today’s alliance. The effect of years of Bahujan politics is people like me. One change is that we don’t have to start from zero. Earlier, when Ambedkar’s work stopped, it took 10-15 years to resume again. In the meantime, society went behind different parties.
On the bahujan movement: Ambedkar said the 21st century is ours… the winds have changed. When a person like me, who struggles, wins, others will find a way, including activists. They don’t need to follow any party (or ideology)
Shyamlal Yadav: A lot of people fought from Bijnor — Meira Kumar and Ram Vilas Paswan fought from there. Mayawati became an MP from there for the first time. Such big politicians have come from there. If such a zilla couldn’t be developed so many years after Independence, what would happen to the rest of UP?
The overall polling percentage in Lok Sabha this time was 64 per cent. The BJP got 36 per cent. The NDA formed the government taking 36 percent of the vote. And 36 per cent of the people didn’t vote. If these people had voted, the outcome would’ve been different… I feel that employment in rural areas has been purposely destroyed so that people have to travel far looking for jobs. Poor people won’t come back home to vote. If jobs come to your zilla and you stay with your family and vote, then the voting percentage could be 80, 95, 98, 99 per cent. Then the government would be formed not with 35 to 40 per cent of the vote but 48 to 49 per cent. It might cause a huge difference… I see this as a conspiracy between the corporate sector and those in power that they haven’t brought development to the rural places.
Where I fought an election is a very backward area… Every politician who took a vote from there, came to power but did no work… All of us understand how much work is possible as an MP, but then if you come to the state, become a CM, and still don’t do work, then it’s your fault. That’s why I said that I need to prepare that land for myself, forever.
Manoj CG: When you took part in the CAA-NRC protests and went to the Jama Masjid, it was seen that this is the beginning of a new Dalit-Muslim alliance. How do you see Muslim politics in India and what role would you like to play in it?
I think a bhaiyy (fear) has been created by politicians around it. It’s a vote that only votes on the policy of defeating BJP… If there’s a face that they think can defeat BJP, they may vote for them… Muslims are worse off than Dalits. I’ll try to ensure this is discussed in Parliament… Hopefully, awareness will improve and they will vote on different issues or understand what kind of person can help them in policies.
Manoj CG: You said BJP-RSS have always been against the Constitution. In the last two years, we’ve seen Rahul Gandhi using the symbolism of the red Constitution book. How do you see it?
Why do I need to see it? My people are in a very bad state. It’s good, if people support him, it’s good. He’s doing his work, the decision is up to the people… We think our work is not complete. Kanshi Ram and Babasaheb’s mission is incomplete… It’s not done until the Constitution is followed truly and societal discrimination stops.
Asad Rehman: Some criticise that now you’re travelling in a plane and big cars. What do you say?
I don’t have the facilities otherwise I would’ve come in a plane. The government facilities I get… you get plane coupons, I think. Can backward caste people not sit in planes? Modi ji can travel in Rs 8,000-crore plane, can I not go in a helicopter? If it were up to me, I’d give a helicopter to all my companions… Crores of women (in our country) haven’t seen a plane or helicopter ever. They are born and die in poverty. Crores of women haven’t travelled in an AC train.
Asad Rehman: Your party told me that the by-polls of 10 seats in UP are about to happen, you’re going to fight three.
We’ll fight all 10… Preparations have begun. There are many contenders for every seat. We’re going to win the by-polls. It may be that the Opposition and the Government will fight us together.
On speeches of PM and LOP: Both spoke on their agendas and parties (in Parliament). In my speech, I kept away from jokes and discussed issues. It’s the only platform where BJP gives answers, nowhere else
Asad Rehman: People say that with new leaders joining your party, the older ones could be neglected.
I haven’t left any companion behind… I am in politics because even today nobody picks up our issues responsibly. I’ve listened to everyone’s speeches. In Parliament, when there are questions about who’s responsible for the state of these castes, they were laughing.
From one side, they’d say, ‘Daro mat, darao mat (don’t be afraid, don’t scare others)’. From another side, they’d say ‘Mausi, abhi toh party saans le rahi hai (take it slow)’. They were reciting dialogues from (the film) Sholay. Is that what Parliament is for? If the Government and Opposition are both like this, then people like me should speak loudly to be heard… Naya nau din, purana sau din. Everyone is respected in my party.
Shyamlal Yadav: Many SC/ST/OBC leaders have acquired property… does their new wealth make them easy targets for Central agencies?
Even Delhi people are jailed. Why do you leave them out? They are stuck in some money-related scam… It’s a bitter truth — do only Akhilesh ji and Mayawati ji have property? No other party? Congress? BJP? All leaders should be examined, as well as all those in the bureaucracy and judiciary… I’ve learnt in politics to not do anything that allows someone to control you. To be free, you have to sacrifice some things… I’m the only leader in Indian politics today who’s been hit with four bullets and yet is standing on his own beliefs and identity and isn’t being disturbed or pressurised.
Nikhil Ghanekar: If the BSP was still strong, could the movement have moved faster?
Definitely. If the BSP was furthering the movement and still strong, Chandrashekhar Azad wouldn’t be needed. I’m not in opposition to the BSP, I’m the alternative… If one tree weakens, a new tree is born under whose shade society can rest for a long time.
Nikhil Ghanekar: What’s the future of the Bahujan movement?
It has a bright future. Dr Ambedkar said the 21st century is ours… The movement is on, the winds have changed. When a person like me who struggles, wins, others will find a way, including activists. They don’t need to follow any party (or ideology). They can join us and still work for their people.
Liz Mathew: As a new MP, whose speech did you like more — the Prime Minister’s or the Leader of the Opposition’s?
Both spoke on their agendas and parties. I liked my own speech the best. When I later listened to it, as a first-time MP, I could discuss many important issues in a short time. I tried to keep away from jokes and discussed foundational issues. It’s the only platform where BJP gives answers, nowhere else.
Deeptiman Tiwary: How do you see the caste census?
It’s very important. Mandal commission’s recommendations need to be implemented properly. Caste census must happen. Reservation must be implemented in many areas. Many in the country don’t know that the reservation which SC/ST/OBCs get is only two percent. About 98 percent (jobs) are in the private sector.
Deeptiman Tiwary: Kanshi Ram often proudly said, yes, I’m an opportunist because my people didn’t get an opportunity. In the future, for the advancement of your Bahujan community, will you form a compromise with the BJP?
Even if they make me the PM, I won’t go with them. They give a position, not power. If you don’t have power, you can’t help your people.
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