Radhikaraje: For me, the past is a pool of wisdom, a repository of memories and lived experiences, good and bad. It’s good to dip into that wealth from time to time but one has to create one’s own recipe to bring in compassion and creativity in the world.
Muzaffar Ali: It’s a window to the future. If you don’t have a perspective of the past, you cannot design futures. That vocabulary comes from your inheritance. We have a legacy of relationships and those have empowered us.
Radhika ji, your past has a stint with The Indian Express. Did you want to be a journalist? Do those learnings help you today?
Radhikaraje: I always wanted to have the power of expression. The Indian Express was the best place I could start. That earlier confidence and the power of earning a salary are so empowering. It was important to know that I have the power to earn my livelihood. Today, I don’t need to rely on a cheque but that earlier empowerment of knowing that if I need to, I can, is very liberating.
Growing up in Delhi and being a daughter of an IAS officer, I was exposed to cultures from different parts of the country. It assimilated beautifully in The Indian Express. Being able to analyse and cohesively put it in words has definitely helped me in my course of work.
Muzaffar sahab, the past is also a contested place today with a politics of polarisation around it. When you look at the past as a search for confluence, how do you insulate your projects from these currents of the time?
Muzaffar Ali: I steer clear of all the narrow paradigms that make us a small human being. There’s a lot to inspire
you… poetry, music. We should search for that art that unites human beings.
Radhika ji, you live in a palace — the largest private residence in the world. How do you keep a window open to the real world?
Radhikaraje: It’s a misconception that royalty is not connected to reality. The fact that they have remained relevant is because they are rooted in reality. Growing up, seeing my family and in-laws, there has always been a connection with the people and it cuts across classes.
Muzaffar sahab, you have spoken about how Lucknow gave you poetry; Aligarh fikr and soch; Calcutta painting; and Bombay gave you filmmaking. On the way, you met Rahi Masoom Raza and Satyajit Ray. Tell us what you mean when you say these people and places have shaped you.
Muzaffar Ali: My quest in life was uncertain. My father said, if I didn’t study science I would be on the streets. I was studying geology in Aligarh. I thought it was a game of stones but it also fascinated me. It opened my eyes to painting because if I hadn’t seen those rock sections, I wouldn’t have seen the wonders of nature.
What did you learn from Ray?
Muzaffar Ali: Ray and I used to work in the same office in Calcutta. I thought he was a strange person. Then a bell rang in my mind, that when Ray can take Bengal to people, what wrong did Awadh do? I learnt that to create a frame, you have to dwell on the frame. Frame is a meditation. So, I used to sketch each frame. That is what I learnt from him. He used to sketch each character, each frame, and that gives you a very different insight into your art.
Before you became a filmmaker you were a painter. Has that had an impact on your film?
Muzaffar Ali: Yes, I thought I could only do painting and nothing else. If I wasn’t a painter, I would’ve been a stupid filmmaker.
Radhika ji, you have chosen to keep the Maharani title. In a democracy, where the organising principle is equality not hierarchy, is this a burden?
I have not decided to keep or reject the title. Address me with the title or not, I am the same person. But sometimes it helps bring focus on important issues. I am aware of my privileges. I want to make the most of them by impacting society in positive ways.
Muzaffar sahab, in your work, you’ve tried to reconstruct the Ganga- Jamuni tehzeeb. If we look at films, there was a time when there was a benign separateness. That benignity is gone, and distance has increased. What future do you see in the kind of work you are doing?
Muzaffar Ali: The Ganga-Jamuni tehzeeb cannot die. Look at Wajid Ali Shah. The British defamed him but Kathak, Thumri and Dadra, all flourished in his time. This patronage is important for the arts. That’s one thing that Bollywood has to learn because if you are looking at becoming global, you can’t get caught up in small things. You have to look at life in a bigger, artistic, global hemisphere.
Gaman gave you the theme of the migrant who went from Awadh to Bombay. During the Bihar election, this was a big issue. Ordinary people were talking about why should they have to go away to earn a living. If you were to make Gaman today, would it be different?
Muzaffar Ali: Not at all. When I go to Bombay, I only look at the city through the lens of Gaman. Things haven’t changed. People are still helpless. They’re leaving.
Radhika ji, you are a storyteller of heritage. Do you think of new ways of reaching out to the new generation whose attention span is shrinking?
Radhikaraje: The generation we are circumspect of today, we were that generation once. Whether it’s social media or other ways, we are able to tell our stories authentically. The attention span is long enough to let things grasp. But every generation goes through those phases. So I’m hopeful.
Do you find it a challenge also to communicate the concept of custodianship?
Radhikaraje: Absolutely. The basic impression that goes out is not of custodianship but entitlement. I see that in children growing up today. They’re getting things too easily. But in royal families, one knows an object has been here for centuries and they have to take care of it. That sense of responsibility is there.
Muzaffar sahab, your films seem almost like they were made around the songs. Does the film come first or the songs?
Muzaffar Ali: Actually, I dream of the character first. I look at it as a soul, as a dynamic trajectory of a person going through their lives. Then I try to immerse them into poetic concepts. All beauty is created out of immersive experiences but nowadays, there is a lack of time. We have one song after another, all waiting to be knocked down. But Umrao Jaan songs have their own place.
And Umrao Jaan has been re-released 44 years later.
Muzaffar Ali: Yes, fortunately all my films are being restored in 4K. Umrao Jaan has been done. Gaman, Anjuman, have been done. They are working on Aagaman now.
But 44 years ago, India was different. You were different, so was the audience. Would you have made Umrao Jaan differently today’s audience?
Muzaffar Ali: No, because all the horses don’t run in a race. Some horses are worshipped, they are adorned, they are served. If you run all the horses, what’s the use of one stick? A horse should live in your heart also.
(From left) Vandita Mishra, National Opinion Editor, The Indian Express, filmmaker Muzaffar Ali and Maharani Radhikaraje Gaekwad of Baroda (Photo by Sankhadeep Banerjee) 
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